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The New Excuse

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  • The New Excuse


  • #2
    Besides, we already used those other excuses in previous years for not giving out raises.

    Comment


    • #3
      If the only thing keeping your business afloat is the margin gained by foreign governments' currency manipulation, anti-competitive practices and lack of any EHS standards, you probably aren't long for this world anyway.

      Also, for everybody here who gives a fig about the environment health or safety, why is it ok to achieve cost reductions by moving production to countries with more lax environmental standards? How much more would foreign newsprint cost if they had to pay their workers a decent wage and provide for their healthcare? Why is it ok to destroy the environment and have unsafe working conditions where brown and black people live, but not where white people live? (seriously, take a look at the map). You shouldn't argue for $15 per hour for workers in the US, when you can only achieve such prosperity by outsourcing your EHS problems to China, Mexico, India, et al.

      But yeah, that's probably all Trump's fault.
      Last edited by kansasquaker; 06-19-2018, 08:49 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
        If the only thing keeping your business afloat is the margin gained by foreign governments' currency manipulation, anti-competitive practices and lack of any EHS standards, you probably aren't long for this world anyway.

        Also, for everybody here who gives a fig about the environment health or safety, why is it ok to achieve cost reductions by moving production to countries with more lax environmental standards? How much more would foreign newsprint cost if they had to pay their workers a decent wage and provide for their healthcare? Why is it ok to destroy the environment and have unsafe working conditions where brown and black people live, but not where white people live? (seriously, take a look at the map). You shouldn't argue for $15 per hour for workers in the US, when you can only achieve such prosperity by outsourcing your EHS problems to China, Mexico, India, et al.

        But yeah, that's probably all Trump's fault.
        As far as newsprint is concerned, the issue is with tariffs applied to Canadian producers - which don't really fit your foreign government and source origins criteria (e.g. https://globalnews.ca/news/4140893/u...ian-newsprint/)

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        • #5
          @kansasquaker

          Using your criteria, what has Trump done for America to:

          Tighten environmental standards?

          To require employers to pay their workers a decent wage?

          To provide workers healthcare?

          To ensure safe working conditions?
          Last edited by fiatlux; 06-19-2018, 11:21 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by gordo View Post

            As far as newsprint is concerned, the issue is with tariffs applied to Canadian producers - which don't really fit your foreign government and source origins criteria (e.g. https://globalnews.ca/news/4140893/u...ian-newsprint/)
            That's 100% true. But since trade was the topic, I wasn't going to pass up the opportunity to talk about the underlying issues. The particular little barbs going back and fourth now are destructive for some and beneficials for others. (I have no doubt those closest to power access the globe benefit the most in these spats). Really they're no different than any other interventionist government policy - they create turmoil until the new equilibrium is reached. They are the symptoms, not the problem. The underlying tension will never go away as long as wealthy countries are shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by fiatlux View Post
              @kansasquaker

              Using your criteria, what has Trump done for America to:

              Tighten environmental standards?

              To require employers to pay their workers a decent wage?

              To provide workers healthcare?

              To ensure safe working conditions?
              America already has some of the most strict and costly standards on the planet. That's why it's so difficult to manufacture anything here. Any further increase in costs can only hurt the American worker and make them less competitive vs global labor.

              My question still stands. Why are we willing to tolerate these practices in Africa and Asia but not in America, Canada and Europe? If we really believe workers are entitled to certain protections, why have we intentionally shifted manufacturing to places which do not provide them?
              Last edited by kansasquaker; 06-19-2018, 11:37 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post

                America already has some of the most strict and costly standards on the planet. That's why it's so difficult to manufacture anything here. Any further increase in costs can only hurt the American worker and make them less competitive vs global labor.

                My question still stands. Why are we willing to tolerate these practices in Africa and Asia but not in America, Canada and Europe? If we really believe workers are entitled to certain protections, why have we intentionally shifted manufacturing to places which do not provide them?
                You didn't answer those specific questions. Perhaps it's because the Trump administration has been dismantling environmental protections and healthcare? "If you can't beat 'em join 'em?"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fiatlux View Post

                  You didn't answer those specific questions. Perhaps it's because the Trump administration has been dismantling environmental protections and healthcare? "If you can't beat 'em join 'em?"
                  I apologize, I thought my answer was pretty clear. Trump hasn't done anything to increase those protections because American workers don't need additional protections. They already have some of the best on the planet. Your turn.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
                    The underlying tension will never go away as long as wealthy countries are shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations.
                    By shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations the companies either increase their profit margins and/or better meet their customer desire for lower cost goods. Isn't that the goal of any company? Don't the citizens of wealthy countries encourage those companies whenever they make a purchase decision? Doesn't offshoring production create jobs in those countries which in turn helps raise their standard of living?



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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
                      My question still stands. Why are we willing to tolerate these practices in Africa and Asia but not in America, Canada and Europe? If we really believe workers are entitled to certain protections, why have we intentionally shifted manufacturing to places which do not provide them?
                      I'll chime in here: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gordo View Post
                        By shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations the companies either increase their profit margins and/or better meet their customer desire for lower cost goods. Isn't that the goal of any company? Don't the citizens of wealthy countries encourage those companies whenever they make a purchase decision? Doesn't offshoring production create jobs in those countries which in turn helps raise their standard of living?
                        The answers to your questions are Yes, Yes and Yes. Companies can make a lot of money, and save consumers vastly larger sums in aggregate, by shifting production to countries with fewer regulations. People like profits and cheap goods.

                        But people also say they like a clean environment (whatever that may mean to you), good working conditions etc. Many say these are human rights. There's a good case to be made that excess carbon in the atmosphere will result in enormous losses in lives, property and literally land. And of course there's a huge flow of capital in one direction too. Competitive advantage through legislation is not a sustainable system. When things get tough, other countries will attempt to legislate away your advantage.
                        Last edited by kansasquaker; 06-19-2018, 12:14 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
                          ... American workers don't need additional protections. They already have some of the best on the planet.
                          Are you kidding, or are you blind???

                          Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

                          ... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by claude72 View Post
                            Are you kidding, or are you blind???

                            Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

                            ... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.

                            Interestingly, in ranking the best and worst countries for workers, the US scores a 4 which puts the it on par with countries like Iraq, Iran, and Sierra Leone

                            https://www.fastcompany.com/3031015/...es-for-workers

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by claude72 View Post
                              Are you kidding, or are you blind???

                              Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

                              ... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.
                              Might be a reason why the state of California has a higher GDP than all of France.

                              Comment

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