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  • #16
    Originally posted by arossetti View Post

    Might be a reason why the state of California has a higher GDP than all of France.
    Only since last year... and surely because we didn't yet legalize marijuana, which is a HUGE (and new) source of profit for California!
    Last edited by claude72; 06-19-2018, 02:30 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by claude72 View Post
      Are you kidding, or are you blind???

      Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

      ... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.
      I'll pass on all that protection, thanks just the same tho. It costs WAY too much and I can provide better for myself.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
        ... and I can provide better for myself.
        Yeees... because today you can afford, and you'll have your healthcare as long as you will afford, or as long as you will have your job.
        But what happens to you and your healthcare if you are fired tomorrow (if you are an employe) or if your company is bankrupted tomorrow? Do you keep your healthcare?

        In France, is not something you pay yourself or something provided by your boss, but it's given by the State to everybody: so, whatever happens to you, you've got it, even if you are unemployed.
        Healthcare is not based on individuallity (like in the US), but it's based on solidarity... of course some selfish people who do not see "further than the tip of their nose" (litteral translation of a french expression, but I hope you can see the point) claim that they do not want to pay for all the other people... forgetting that surely at one moment of their life these other people will pay for them.

        Of course, it costs a little bit more... but it is also much more efficient and covers everybody.

        (some years ago, poor people and unemployed people receiving social welfare even had a better healthcare than working people!)


        We can also debate about the retirement system: do you know that the US retirement system is actually ruining all the european economy?
        Last edited by claude72; 06-19-2018, 03:14 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by claude72 View Post
          But what happens to you and your healthcare if you are fired tomorrow (if you are an employe) or if your company is bankrupted tomorrow? Do you keep your healthcare?
          It's really just a question of who you believe is ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of an individual - is it the individual himself or the society of which he is a part? I prefer the former answer, you're welcome to prefer the latter. I find the attendant moral obligations of the latter answer to be unacceptable.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
            It's really just a question of who you believe is ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of an individual - is it the individual himself or the society of which he is a part?
            I completely agree with you.

            And I prefer the latter answer: I fell like being a part of the (french) society, and I take the advantages offered by the society, while accepting the attendant moral obligations, also knowing that this society will never give up on me and will protect me as much as possible.

            When I was young and in (quite) good health, the "free" healthcare of the french society was an advantage that I already much apreciated. Today I have a cancer (a lymphoma) and I am treated with chemotherapy: believe me, I deeply appreciate the french healthcare system (called "Sécurité Sociale") as I am treated the best possible way and I have nothing to pay.


            I can keep on working: I have a part time job, only 4 hours per day, that is manageable, despite I am a little bit slow in my job because of the fatigue given by the chemo, but I can work, so I have no problem with my boss. But even if I couldn't cope with my job, my boss cannot lay me off because I'm sick: that's also a part of the workers protections provided by the french society, the french laws forbid a boss to lay somebody off as simply as saying him/her the famous american "You are fired".
            (hope you understand my english...???)

            And I imagine what would be my situation in a country like USA: my healthcare is provided by my employer, I'm too sick to work as much as normal (frankly, at the end of my small 4 hours day I am often exhausted, and I couldn't work a whole normal day), so the boss lays me off, I have no more healthcare and not enough money to buy medecines... An untreated lymphoma is 100% lethal: I'm dead.
            Last edited by claude72; 06-19-2018, 04:50 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
              I prefer the former answer, (...). I find the attendant moral obligations of the latter answer to be unacceptable.
              That's also (one of) the reason why many french people cross the channel to work (and live) in the UK: because they find the attendant moral obligations of the french society to be unacceptable.



              Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
              ... you're welcome to prefer the latter.
              That's also the reason why many english people cross the channel in the opposite direction, to work and live in France: because they appreciate the advantages of a society ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of an individual and they don't mind the attendant moral obligations.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by claude72 View Post
                And I imagine what would be my situation in a country like USA: my healthcare is provided by my employer, I'm too sick to work as much as normal (frankly, at the end of my small 4 hours day I am often exhausted, and I couldn't work a whole normal day), so the boss lays me off, I have no more healthcare and not enough money to buy medecines... An untreated lymphoma is 100% lethal: I'm dead.
                I can appreciate your perspective on the French version of socialized healthcare, thank you for sharing. Cancer sucks anywhere and I'm sorry for you. I've seen it devastate my family, particularly women with breast cancer. I'm glad that you have a situation that is workable for you and I wish you the best of luck. I can assure you that if you were in the same situation in the states, it would be nothing like you imagine.

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                • #23
                  I really enjoyed reading this thread. I do wonder why, here in the States, we can share roads and other public utilities but God forbid if we share the costs of healthcare.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Keith View Post
                    I really enjoyed reading this thread. I do wonder why, here in the States, we can share roads and other public utilities but God forbid if we share the costs of healthcare.
                    Because the entire healthcare industry is corrupt as hell already. I think it would be even worse if it was made into a federal program of sorts.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by kansasquaker View Post
                      I can appreciate your perspective on the French version of socialized healthcare, thank you for sharing.
                      You're welcome.

                      And I'm glad to see that you understand my point: it's not a political debate or argument, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm only sharing.
                      (not all the details: french healthcare works great but is not absolutely perfect, it's sometime a little bit more complicated and there are sometimes some bumps on the road!)



                      Cancer sucks anywhere and I'm sorry for you. I've seen it devastate my family, particularly women with breast cancer. I'm glad that you have a situation that is workable for you and I wish you the best of luck.
                      Thanks for your support.
                      My father died of a cancer too... and he was diagnosed at the same age I have today...
                      But my lymphoma is not that bad: with today's medecines it's only a "rough patch" to pass, and in 3 or 4 monthes (perhaps less) it will be ancient history.



                      I can assure you that if you were in the same situation in the states, it would be nothing like you imagine.
                      Really? for everybody?
                      Tell me: on my side of the pond we hear so much awful stories of people left without care in the US, or left flat broke having to pay a 200K hospital bill after their wife/husband/son/daughter died of a cancer or any other long illness... Are these stories all false?
                      And is the famous "You are fired" only a legend or is it a reality?
                      Last edited by claude72; 06-19-2018, 06:37 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by PricelineNegotiator View Post
                        Because the entire healthcare industry is corrupt as hell already.
                        It's not corrupted, it's provided by private companies in a capitalist system, and, to be more realistic, in the USA it's in an unchecked capitalist system.

                        Let's talk a little bit about politic: we live in a capitalist world. The basis and only goal of the capitalism is to earn as much money as possible, without any consideration for all other parameters and (collateral) damages.


                        Health, healthcare, private clinics are only a business, and like all other businesses it's only to make money, much money, more money. And health is a juicy business, because everybody becomes sick at one time of his life, so it's a business with (almost) 100% of the population being potential customers.

                        Meaning that a private healthcare company as absolutely no interest in your health, the company exists only to make a big pile of money in a juicy business... with, like any other company, a bunch of vultures and parasites called "shareholders" asking/telling/ordering the CEO to make even more money. And like any other insurance system, the only way to make more money is to charge the customers the most possible (and even more) and to reimburse the less possible (and even less with all the possible means to avoid paying) to get higher profits : so a huge part of the money collected goes directly into the pockets of the shareholders and only a small part is used to pay the medecines and the hospitals/clinics/MDs.



                        I think it would be even worse if it was made into a federal program of sorts.
                        In the french system, the "Sécurité Sociale" is not in the pocket of greedy shareholders, but is handled by the government, it's a public service, provided to the people, a service which is not intended to make profits: so almost* all the money that comes in (from the mandatory** subscriptions, collected from every companies and every working people) goes out to pay the medecines, the hospitals, the clinics the MDs, etc. to treat and cure everybody: in this system, everybody pays for everybody. And as everybody needs health care one day or another, (I think that) it is somehow quite fair.

                        * almost, because as a public service, people who work in are civil servant and are paid by the state and by a small part of the collected money

                        ** that's the problem: collection is mandatory... that's the problem and that's the basis of the debate about (quoting kansasquaker) "Who [you believe] is ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of an individual - is it the individual himself or the society of which he is a part?" The french government clearly considers that he is ultimately responsible of the health of the French... but not all the French agree!!!
                        Last edited by claude72; 06-20-2018, 12:48 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by claude72 View Post
                          Tell me: on my side of the pond we hear so much awful stories of people left without care in the US, or left flat broke having to pay a 200K hospital bill after their wife/husband/son/daughter died of a cancer or any other long illness... Are these stories all false?
                          And is the famous "You are fired" only a legend or is it a reality?
                          Have you seen/heard of how many online crowdfunding campaigns (GoFundMe, etc.) there are for US medical bills? There are lots of them. People who have no other way to pay the medical bill have to ask the public for donations. Ironic, considering how Sécurité Sociale works.

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                          • #28
                            A related story that I'm not sure has been brought up here was about our (UK) new, post-Brexit passports. The right-leaning folk here who voted for Brexit, would generally have it that France's more socialist system makes them less competitive. Then, guess where the contract to print the passports went.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by OffsetStorefront View Post
                              Have you seen/heard of how many online crowdfunding campaigns (GoFundMe, etc.) there are for US medical bills?
                              No, I hadn't... simply because before reading your post I even didn't know this system could exist!

                              So, following your advice, I just had a look to GoFundMe: today more than 4,500 people are asking for help to pay their medical bills!

                              And the foreword on the "Medical, Illness & Healing" page of this site says "GoFundMe has helped millions of patients and their families raise funds for medical expenses."... I'm in shock: millions of patients! in a great country like USA, millions of people need charity to pay for their medical bills. It seems that the situation is even worse than the awful stories I have heard.

                              Thanks for sharing this information!


                              ****


                              I also noticed that on GoFundMe Medical is the second cause, the first being Education... does it mean that there is also a problem with education funding in the US?
                              Last edited by claude72; 06-20-2018, 12:59 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by claude72 View Post
                                millions of people need charity to pay for their medical bills.
                                I'd rather be charitable with my own money than force you with the might of the government to be charitable with your own money.

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