Watching the US wrastle with healthcare

gordo

Well-known member
For a nation than runs around the globe instilling "democracy" and decries all inhuman, violent acts it seems absolutely ludicrous they cannot sort out health care for it's citizens. It seems they would rather spend the money on bombs and give to the already rich at the expense of it's citizens - especially the weakest, women, elderly, and disadvantaged. Sorry, I just can't understand how individual Americans can cope with the way these issues are addressed by their government nor deal with the system that's been set up.
 
At least we have cheeseburgers.

Unless you are one of the top 1% cheeseburgers may be all you can afford. The repeal-and-replace bill passed by House Republicans would redistribute hundreds of billions of dollars to the rich through tax cuts, about $765 billion over the next decade, while reducing government subsidies for Medicaid recipients and those buying coverage on the individual market.
 
For a nation than runs around the globe instilling "democracy" and decries all inhuman, violent acts it seems absolutely ludicrous they cannot sort out health care for it's citizens. It seems they would rather spend the money on bombs and give to the already rich at the expense of it's citizens - especially the weakest, women, elderly, and disadvantaged. Sorry, I just can't understand how individual Americans can cope with the way these issues are addressed by their government nor deal with the system that's been set up.

The problem is not with the government, it is with the society in general. There are many forces working at the same time that seem to prevent a rational and pragmatic solution.

There is the individualist view as opposed to the collective view. It is a bit of a myth that people are such individualists in the states because they don't realize how collective their society is. But in their minds they think they are still individuals who are responsible for their own futures, good or bad.

There is also a puritanical bent, where if you live an improper life and this results in poor conditions, then you deserve your fate. Or if your choices are not proper in some kind of moral way, you should not be allowed to chose them. This kind of moral view exists on both the left and the right.

There is also the idea that government can not do things well, therefore anything that government does must result in poor outcomes. The early view at the beginning of the country was that government was to be rather small and that people, on their own, should develop what they needed to meet their needs and not expect government to provide it.

There is also the issue of which government should have a say, the federal government in DC or the state government.

Of course there are a lot of myths that support ideologies which prevent pragmatic solutions. Big money helps to keep myths going that suit their objectives.

From outside the USA, this seems very strange. How can so many people support issues that seem to go against their own self interests by taking idealogical stands instead of pragmatic stands on many issues.

I think the underlying reason to this seemingly confusing situation, is also what makes the USA great. Just about every citizen and every immigrant that has come to the USA seems to know and accepts that deal that they are given. The deal is that if you work hard and invest in your self and your future, you will be rewarded. And that also implies that the collective interests will not be a drag on that effort. It is a gamble.

Now this does not work for everyone and success is not a guarantee but that is the deal and many are willing to pursue that, than be taken care of by the society which would limit their personal success. It is a gamble and there are winners and losers but in general, people are willing to take the risk.

What has this mentality resulted in? Well, fantastic advances in innovation, wealth and prosperity for most. Probably much more opportunities for people to advance and for new ideas to have a chance than almost anywhere else in the world. Recently, things have not been so good for the middle class but in general, I suspect they still want a chance at that deal.

Here in Canada, we tend to be more pragmatic and provide government services that take better care of everyone, but we don't tend to be such risk takes and maybe expect others to provide support. Often our smartest have to go to the states to be able to live to their full potential because the opportunities are not available here. People and groups here don't want to risk to much. Life is good, why bother.

Everybody in the US wants to be rich. They don't really hate the rich as much as one might think because they have agreed to the deal that might give them also a chance to be rich.

I my mind, their crazyness makes sense even though I don't agree with it. They will work it out eventually. The fact that not everyone will fully benefit is not their concern. Pursuit of their own happiness is.
 
I my mind, their crazyness makes sense even though I don't agree with it. They will work it out eventually. The fact that not everyone will fully benefit is not their concern. Pursuit of their own happiness is.

Hard to benefit if you're dead from a pre-existing condition that meant you couldn't get health insurance or because you couldn't afford the co-pay or deductible. But I agree, the movie Scarface was a great example of the American dream in action (EN wrote "I think the underlying reason to this seemingly confusing situation, is also what makes the USA great. Just about every citizen and every immigrant that has come to the USA seems to know and accepts that deal that they are given. The deal is that if you work hard and invest in your self and your future, you will be rewarded.")
 
Still BY FAR the number one place in the world in which everybody wants to move to. How could such a mean and hateful country be the most desired place where everybody wants to live? ANSWER.... Free Market Capitalism and opportunity. My next door neighbors immigrated from Canada. More opportunity here in the U.S. they claim. Same with some friends from Australia, and my other neighbors from Chile. A major portion of Canada's economy depends on selling us greedy consumerist Americans products. That's why Trudeau called Trump and begged to renegotiate NAFTA after Trump threatened to kill it. I still hope he kills it.

Right now the US is in an epic civil battle for the soul of the country. Socialism vs Free Market Capitalism. Trump is advocating for a free market approach to health insurance. Despite all the Obamacare shackles and regulations, the US is still the most innovative healthcare market in the world.

Interesting to note that in my case my 3 person family went from
$279 per month with a $2500 deductible (pre Obamacare) to
$1230 per month with a $5000 deductible today.

That is accurate although it looks like I must have mistyped it. Obama can name it the Affordable Care Act, but that's not "affordable". We pretty much don't use our insurance because we can rarely cover the deductible. When pushing Obamacare, the left wanted everybody to think that people here were dying in the streets, but it wasn't reality. Pre ACA anybody could walk into any emergency room and be treated with or without funds.... and they did. It was all a lie to push socialized medicine on a capitalist society, and it failed. It was voted in on a party line vote and looks like it will die the same way.

Bottom line, we elected Trump and now we get minimum 4 years to see if he can make things better. So far, things here in the states look markedly improved by many metrics. Oh... and bombing ISIS and somebody who kills children with chemicals .... really who's against that?
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That's the problem with the American dream. It makes everyone concerned for[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] the day[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] they're gonna be rich" - Jed Bartlett.[/FONT]
 
and bombing ISIS and somebody who kills children with chemicals .... really who's against that?

Well, one might have some reservations about the two, given that bombing ISIS strengthens Assad, and vice-versa. They're both vile, but we need a pragmatic strategy. I don't know exactly what that is, and Trump certainly doesn't.
 
That's why Trudeau called Trump and begged to renegotiate NAFTA after Trump threatened to kill it. I still hope he kills it.

Fake news, Alternative news? What's your source?
 
Well, one might have some reservations about the two, given that bombing ISIS strengthens Assad, and vice-versa. They're both vile, but we need a pragmatic strategy. I don't know exactly what that is, and Trump certainly doesn't.

Agree with you there, Assad did a deal with the Syrians that boiled down to: "leave us Assads in power, or else! As a quid pro quo Assad made sure that the country was secular, moslems lived together with christians without issue, schools were free as was the study at university, there was a universal and free health system based on the German Krankenkasse system and the infrastructure worked, as did home care for the elderly. Shops were full and very similar to what you find in the west, you could even get alcohol and pork. Methinks that American meddling without understanding how things work in the mid east has caused a lot of damage, Messrs. Saddam and Ghadafi were right SOB´s but they had their countries under control, getting rid of them allowed Wahabi (read Saudi) moslems to create mayham in otherwise stable societies and if Assad get´s ousted the same thing will happen to Syria. Then what, Jordan?
 
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There is the individualist view as opposed to the collective view. It is a bit of a myth that people are such individualists in the states because they don't realize how collective their society is. But in their minds they think they are still individuals who are responsible for their own futures, good or bad.

I like what you have to say for the most part in your quote. Most people outside would never agree with our "American Dream" and that were crazy for pursuing it. I, for one, am a firm believer in it. But also acknowledge that I could spend most of my years working towards it and at the end have nothing to show for it.

What I don't agree with you is that the individualist is a myth. I think most Americans are individualist, whether they want to agree with it or not. In most of our politics, we just want the government to stay out of our lives. Whether its guns and religion, or abortion and gay marriage. All of these want the government to stay out making rules and regulations on it. Then each side will say that when government is involved in legislation for it, they are acting as protecting one side or the other. Either way, Americans want government out of our lives, although the left (liberals) propose a lot more government sponsored programs and are more apt to want the government active in our lives. Prime example, Healthcare.

My views are that 1) the government cannot (according to our constitution) and should not force an individual to purchase a product (healthcare). 2) I do not want to be responsible for other peoples insurance save veterans and the disabled/handicapped. I have to purchase my own, from my paycheck which I work hard for. I do not need more of my paycheck going to health insurance for someone else.
 
Interesting to note that in my case my 3 person family went from
$279 per month with a $2500 deductible (pre Obamacare) to
$1230 per month with a $5000 deductible today.

Same here only a 2 person family with insurance through work...my "share" of my insurance premium went from $196 per month to $784 per month and the deductible went from $500 per month to $2,500 per month. And it isn't just the increase in premiums and deductibles but they also eliminated almost all of the "preventative" healthcare the used to be paid for 100% whether you had met your deductible like mammograms, lab tests, x-rays, etc and now they pay nothing on that until you meet your very high deductible.

It is not that I support the new plan by the Republicans...it that I hate the current plan so much. I am more for the repeal but fear the replace because I fully believe they will take a plan that was bad and make it much, much worse.
 
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What I don't agree with you is that the individualist is a myth. I think most Americans are individualist, whether they want to agree with it or not. In most of our politics, we just want the government to stay out of our lives.

Most want the services of the police, fire dept., public education, libraries, insurance for life and property etc. These are not individual activities but shared activities. They are taken for granted. That was what I was suggesting by my myth comment. For some things, people recognize that collective efforts are beneficial.

I think your view is very valid. I don't have an argument with it, with respect to not wanting to pay for others. But what I would argue about, would be those people who argue against paying for others but then when a medical disaster hits them, they change their minds and expect to be supported with expenses that would be well above any accumulated payments they might have made into a system.

The problem seems to be in getting the balance right between individual and collective rewards and risks.
 
Well .. . a lot of us down here in the South just didn't like the way the country was heading . . . it started in the 90's when everybody had a right to own a house . . . we saw how that worked out eight years ago and are just now getting over that (kinda) and then the, imho failed healthcare which was anything buy affordable. My pricing inccrease as similar to Joe's and I am now paying about 1600 a month for my 2 member family and the coverage sucks . . . I'm close enough to Medicare that I may see some light at the end of the tunnel . . . . but then again it might just be a train.
 
Most want the services of the police, fire dept., public education, libraries, insurance for life and property etc. These are not individual activities but shared activities. They are taken for granted. That was what I was suggesting by my myth comment. For some things, people recognize that collective efforts are beneficial.

I think your view is very valid. I don't have an argument with it, with respect to not wanting to pay for others. But what I would argue about, would be those people who argue against paying for others but then when a medical disaster hits them, they change their minds and expect to be supported with expenses that would be well above any accumulated payments they might have made into a system.

The problem seems to be in getting the balance right between individual and collective rewards and risks.

No arguments here that there are certain items that we need to have collective efforts on.

My solution to the healthcare would be simple. Eliminate boundaries in which insurance companies can operate. In case people outside the US didn't know, our insurance companies cannot cross state lines and offer insurance in another state. So even though I live 20 mins from Illinois and an hour from Kentucky, their companies cannot offer me insurance. This would great a lot of competition, which is proven to drive down the cost of the product, i.e. health insurance. Secondly, I would offer Medicare (our form of gov't ran and issued health insurance) to anyone who wants to enroll in it. But it needs to be paid for from he tax revenue from the people enrolled in it. People who are not enrolled in it should not have to pay for it. Corporations could also elect to provide insurance to their employees or pay taxes to the gov't to the medicare program for every employee if they wish to not offer health insurance as a benefit.

This way we get the best of both worlds. People do not have to pay for others, can choose whatever health insurance they want, and then we can also have a gov't run healthcare program for those who need it.
 
. . it started in the 90's when everybody had a right to own a house . . . we saw how that worked out eight years ago and are just now getting over that (kinda)

I don't understand "right to own a house". It's my understanding that the real estate collapse was a direct result of greed and capitalism run amuck. Banks were issuing mortgages to people that they already knew could not afford the payments, but, it didn't matter to the banks because they were bundling those bad loans and immediately selling them off to Wall Street and bringing in profits galore. More money than they've seen in ages. Like most businesses built on flimsy paper and fraudulent schemes (Pyramids, Ponzi's, etc.) sooner or later, a log will be pulled from the tumble tower that makes the whole thing fall down. Which, is what happened. Ironically, once the tower did fall, and, the collapse happened, who do you think Wall Street and the banks went to for a bail out?
 
it seems the level of awareness about how the housing bubble in the US was created is pretty low. Bill Clinton and his Housing and Urban Development secretary Andrew Cuomo coerced (to put it mildly, banks were threatened with prosecution if they refused to loan money to people previously considered completley non-credit worthy) the banking industry in the US to abandon long established norms for qualifying applicants for loans in an effort to make home ownership available to the working poor. This did not work out as they anticipated, leading to a surge in home buying by any and everyone (all you needed to qualify for a no money down mortgage was a pulse) most of whom bought adjustable rate mortgages, due to their lower payments. This surge in buying drove prices for houses up rapidly and many first time buyers bought as much house as they could afford under the circumstances. The bundling of these mortgages and selling the bundles as investments was the only way the banks saw to remain solvent as they anticipated at the first rise in interest rates the whole market would collapse. This is exactly what happened and buyers who had invested nothing (no down payment) just walked away from their houses (often taking the appliances and fixtures with them) leaving many communities half full of abandoned and wrecked houses.
Americans should not be judged too harshly for being suspicious of our governments ability to improve the social welfare of its citizens, the government has a horrible track record.
 
I don't understand "right to own a house". It's my understanding that the real estate collapse was a direct result of greed and capitalism run amuck. Banks were issuing mortgages to people that they already knew could not afford the payments, but, it didn't matter to the banks because they were bundling those bad loans and immediately selling them off to Wall Street and bringing in profits galore. More money than they've seen in ages. Like most businesses built on flimsy paper and fraudulent schemes (Pyramids, Ponzi's, etc.) sooner or later, a log will be pulled from the tumble tower that makes the whole thing fall down. Which, is what happened. Ironically, once the tower did fall, and, the collapse happened, who do you think Wall Street and the banks went to for a bail out?

Back in the Clintons time in the White House "the government" decided that everyone should be able to own a house so the "lenders" were instructed to loosen the requirements for financing, and, as time went on we went from 20% down (in my fathers day) and proof of an income that could support both the family and the house payment/insurance requirements. As time went on the mortgage companies got looser and looser. I recall a friend of mine that was a mortgage broker talking to me about some of the loans he was making, they called them "stated income' in which the borrower stated what his income was with no proof, no w-2s, bank statements or any other documentation. He told me about one loan in particular that a family in which nobody had a job yet they qualified for a loan on a $2,000,000 house in the East Bay of San Francisco. It was loans like that which created the "housing bubble" since you could qualify way over your head so everyones house value just grew by leaps and bounds . . . but when they ran out of the loan money . . . pop went the bubble.

Thats my understanding of it but heres anothers view from Time magazine

https://goo.gl/HGmrB3
 
Well .. . a lot of us down here in the South just didn't like the way the country was heading . . . it started in the 90's when everybody had a right to own a house . . . we saw how that worked out eight years ago and are just now getting over that (kinda) and then the, imho failed healthcare which was anything buy affordable. My pricing inccrease as similar to Joe's and I am now paying about 1600 a month for my 2 member family and the coverage sucks . . . I'm close enough to Medicare that I may see some light at the end of the tunnel . . . . but then again it might just be a train.

Man I feel bad for you guys. I had to get my own insurance on the "open market" and I'm paying $260/ month. $1000 deductible, max $5000 out of pocket, ect. Pretty good coverage. When I get married in a few months, I will move over to my fiancé's insurance that her company provides. I believe it is going to be around $300/month for us 2 with similar coverage. They also have a wellness clinic on site with physicians available 4 days a week. No charge to go for her and I think $10 for me. Once we have kids I believe our family plan is right at $385/month regardless of # of kids. Maybe we have it good, but I haven't heard the horror stories around my area like you guys are mentioning.
 
As far as Health Care goes (to get back on the subject of the OP), as I've said in previous posts, until someone actually addresses the main root of the problem (the cost of health care, not insurance premiums) I don't expect the problem to be solved anytime soon. As in the example of the Real Estate collapse, we live in a capitalistic society, where greed exists as a main driver of market innovation. I'm a businessman in a free market society, so, I don't disagree with that philosophy at all. In fact, I embrace it. However, sometimes, as in the real estate collapse, greed gets out of hand, and, goes too far, and, as a result we ALL suffer.

Health care case in point: Imagine, if you will, that you are ill and have to go to the hospital. If you are uninsured, (even if you are independently wealthy and can afford to pay) you will be routed in and out as quickly as possible, with as little resources as the hospital can spare. Ahhhhh, but if you have insurance, you will be there for a couple of days where they will run pretty much every diagnostic test possible (whether needed or not) as well as procedures, prescriptions, etc.) Why? Greed. If you are insured, they know that the insurance company will pay whatever large charges they can ring up. At that point, you are no longer a patient, you are a revenue source. Until that changes, somehow, I don't expect to see a solution to our health care problem. No, I'm not advocating socialized medicine. Like I said, I'm a capitalist and a true believer in a free market society, and, no, I don't have the answer.
 

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