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  • Inkjet Cartridge Life ($$$)?

    We're due to get a new Kodak Matchprint proofing System any day now, based on the Epson 9800 Print Engine.
    I'm trying to figure out the 'per proof' cost based on the new consumables, and have always been perplexed by the best way to figure out the cost of the ink. Paper's easy: so-many-inches-per-proof for a full sheet, percentage of that for 'floats' (and you know how long your rolls are).
    I've always just ball-parked it based on best-guesstimate, but was wondering if anyone's ever actual done the math on it (obviously, coverage would be a huge factor).
    Thanks.

    - Mac

  • #2
    Re: Inkjet Cartridge Life ($$$)?

    The Kodak branded Epson is not only "based on the 9800 print engine", it IS the Epson print engine. Epson publishes a chart (maybe Kodak does, too) giving the cost to produce a 24x30 test image. The image is the bicycle with large spokes, fruit and a test palette. According to Epson to produce that file on their media (proofing commercial semi-matte) and using 220 ml cartridges, the cost per sq ft is $1.15.

    Hope that helps a little.
    Bob Hill
    Mid-States Graphics

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    • #3
      Originally posted by PantherMac View Post
      We're due to get a new Kodak Matchprint proofing System any day now, based on the Epson 9800 Print Engine.
      I'm trying to figure out the 'per proof' cost based on the new consumables, and have always been perplexed by the best way to figure out the cost of the ink. Paper's easy: so-many-inches-per-proof for a full sheet, percentage of that for 'floats' (and you know how long your rolls are).
      I've always just ball-parked it based on best-guesstimate, but was wondering if anyone's ever actual done the math on it (obviously, coverage would be a huge factor).
      Thanks.

      - Mac
      I realize this is an old thread but thought that you might be interested to know that some of the Global Imaging Company's have currently begun offering a Cost Per Square foot service program that is "all inclusive" like a copier.... Ink, paper, service, parts, everything it takes to operate some of the WF inkjets.

      Out of curiosity... what would you all say is a fair price per square on say a HP5500?

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      • #4
        Is the 5500 using the small but expensive ink carts?

        The 5500 is a great proofing machine but it is very hard to make any money with it.

        I am so suprised that companies these days are not going with eco-solvent or solvent inkjets. The cost per sq on those machines are maxed out at $2 and that is if your using the top end media and flooding the sheet with ink. The ink cost is only about at max for a eco machine .40 a sq, if your running a mild or true solvent it will be a little higher, maybe like .65 a sq. A set of 220 ml cartridges on a eco-solvent will produce about 1000 sq ft of printing and thats at full coverage and those carts are only $67 ea. The mild or true solvent machines use the bigger 440 ml carts so their sq ft output is much higher, and the cost is roughly $140 a cart.

        The media is better, cheaper and will provide the same results if not better than any waterbased printer on the market.
        Last edited by wideformatcolorparts; 01-09-2009, 06:21 PM. Reason: More information needed

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        • #5
          Originally posted by wideformatcolorparts View Post
          Is the 5500 using the small but expensive ink carts?

          The 5500 is a great proofing machine but it is very hard to make any money with it.

          I am so suprised that companies these days are not going with eco-solvent or solvent inkjets. The cost per sq on those machines are maxed out at $2 and that is if your using the top end media and flooding the sheet with ink. The ink cost is only about at max for a eco machine .40 a sq, if your running a mild or true solvent it will be a little higher, maybe like .65 a sq. A set of 220 ml cartridges on a eco-solvent will produce about 1000 sq ft of printing and thats at full coverage. The mild or true solvent machines use the bigger 440 ml carts so their sq ft output is much higher.

          The media is better, cheaper and will provide the same results if not better than any waterbased printer on the market.
          So I may have chosen a bad model I was trying to get one that many would have... our program is more leaning towards the z series (31/6100) and some others... Currently we are able to offer the equipment, service, supplies, media... everything from $2.10-$3.50 per square foot depending on volume. It's something that to my knowlage has not been done before... its essentially like an all inclusive copier lease. I just thought this might be a good place to check what people thought of it. ...Maybe I'll post a new thread so it's not hijacking this one.

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          • #6
            Do you work for Global Imaging?

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            • #7
              Just sticking my nose in as its Sunday here and raining outside. Basically we are a laminating contractor and laminating machine builder who runs water and solvent based printers on the side as we develop systems for graphic use.Down under we tend to be so far away from the action we experiment more than most. HP5500 -- started years ago with genuine cartridges at say $180/60ml. Now use Korean carts with chip included for $25/680ml cart for pigment and cheaper for dye. No problems. For solvent machines most here would change to bulk systems within 1-2 years. No problems and ink is really peanuts. Only prob we see is the amount of ink needed to upkeep the cleaning cycles need on solvent machines. Plus of course the pressure in NZ not to be seen not to pollute the environment. By the way Eco means Economical in Japan where it started, if some were wondering - not ecological . Also wonder why you consider solvent systems if the original intent here is a colour proofing need on paper ? (I'm assuming that from Pantermac request) Solvent is cheap on plastics ,yes, but I see papers for solvent use are very expensive. Or can we source cheap paper for our solvent machines. We run Epson, HP, Cannon, Mutoh (Epson & Spectra heads) and GZ Xaar in our test area.

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              • #8
                So 440 ml, when bought in two 220 ml carts is $134 (2*$67). But if bought in one 440 ml cart, the same will cost you $140, is that right? Such a deal that big cart!

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                • #9
                  Don't understand your maths? We pay $25/680ml . That's $16 for 440ml. Or $8 per 220 ml cart equivalent. And you are paying $67 for 220 ml or $207 for 680ml??? Like our price better!

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                  • #10
                    Sorry Al Ferrari -- I see you were answering wdeformat -- not me. Yes , the prices are a trap-- just like at a supermaket my wife goes to

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey Bondmaster!!

                      Your getting third party inks for bulk systems and if I must say a heck of a deal at that. But people that purchase new machines have to purchase manufactuer inks to maintain their warranty. After the warranty expires, the end-user is free to use what ever they want.

                      I am not a big fan of third party inks except the systems that Triangle offers. Me being a service technician, I see so many end-users having big part failures due to dirty inks being run through their systems.

                      As for proofing, I have a Mutoh ValueJet with a variable dot print system. I can produce proofs on paper and not have if any color shift. The paper is cheaper for solvent printers than the paper used for pignent/dye systems. The waterbase paper is outragious.

                      I get a kick out of your response on the ECO term, yes it could mean economical, but it is considered ecological friendly ink. For several reason, but the main reason being there is no need for a air scrubber to be installed, low VOC levels, higher pigment count and less solvent. But yes they are economical aswell.

                      Great information you have provided, do you guys down under not have a local supplier or does all of your supplies come from Japan or the states?

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                      • #12
                        We have and still use Triangle down under, but lately has been classed as too expensive even tho their plant I'm told is in China. Being where we are means the "world" trade hierachy has sort of got us now alined with the "Asian" sector as opposed to the "Americas" and the "Euro" arena (that's anther argument for us Anglo based Kiwis). So we deal as much with Japan who uses Korea, who uses China & Taiwan who uses Malaysia etc to produce all the top brands these days. Without policing (and I have personal patents that have been copied world wide) Asia is just a bun fight on these sort of products. There is no incentive to try and produce in Australasia against the Asian product.And a lot of the products work very well if not better than some major suppliers would have you think.
                        Remember, we are essentially a laminator and laminator maker for anything from laser/offset output to largeformat. Only reason we use printers is to check new materials and how they effect lamination after the first Encad disasters gave us a bad name because of laminate failures which in reality are system incompatibility failures. But generally laminating is blamed rather than the media or inks etc., so we had to gain this knowledge and not rely on big boy mentality.
                        So we've had a lot of fun, trying the first oil based inks out of Asia a `couple of years` ahead of your market, tried to kill ourselves with MEK based inks (luckily I've already had my kids 30 odd years ago) (as my taiwanese supplier said it did stop the advance of Sars tho), played with butil lactac inks 5 years ago to get away from solvent etc etc. By the way, my favourate when show bods proudly ask you to sniff the air these days on their "clean" eco inks I always invite them to sit down at floor level x-legged to discuss the lack of solvents. For the odd person who has taken the challenge they look fairly green after 10 minutes or so. Why do people instinctively thick solvent vapour rises?
                        I'm actually serious about the Eco word use and its interpretation in the Western world.
                        As a `tech you'd love to know that we were given the Mutoh engine pass key input some 10 years ago so we could access essentially any Roland, Mimaki, Mutoh etc printer to access what is only a counting system in most printers to tell the operator when the big boy supplier deems youve had enough time with a catridge and other things etd etc. Without the timers they wouldn't make the heap of profit they do.
                        it's 5am here in holiday time so that's why I'm dribbling on. Been woken up by mossies bitting me - most probably an Asian import.
                        Dirty inks - yes - totally agree. That's why cartriges are still touted as better than bulk with the slew against the bulk ink quality. In most cases the bulk ink is fine - but we put independant and extra filters in line to compensate for the airbourne partical contamination that suppliers blame the ink for.

                        Cheap solvent paper - I'd be real keen on a hint where. By the way we use a beautiful micropourous paper of say 10 mil thick on the Cannon and other water based machines that costs approx $3 per square metre I think. Thats say US$100 for a roll 44" x 100 feet roll ( note, altho I was brought up on imperial numeration we changed to metrics in 1976 - so I may be a bit astray here) Is that good. Only solvent paper of quality we see is twice that.
                        Better go - BBQ breakfast is beckoning -- its Summer holidays here if you hadn't guessed.

                        Last comments. 1.. People tend to forget China far outways places like the USA in its large format output volumeKorean-- they are banner mad. All developments on big grunt machines using Xaar ans Spectra head etc comes from there and is rebadged by the top Euro and USA companies. It is a little annoying that in my trade USA companies blatantly tell you their machines are USA made ( you'd be suprised at the brands) when in fact I'm sort of personal freinds with the Korean, Spanish, French and Chezc manufaturers who R&D and make them as OEM devices. 2...Official ink suppliers to the likes of top Japanese print devices are based in Korea etc and you will find the niece or cousin set up to sell the same product in the local tough Asian market - & Australasia is just that these days - part of. Eg:Cartridges for your office and home Epson printers cost $10 or so in the shops. Re fill type agents sell to the office for half this . Only problem is that if you are in the know like us , we bulk amount to keep my work and office going at $1 to $2.50 per cartridge - never a problem. Chips for big industrial cartriges by the way sell ex Korea for $5 each. 3... Warranty issue are all smoke and mirrors aren't they. Unfortunately Ford, GM, and Chrysler forgot to put a warranty on their cars to say that unless you used their petrol/gas you had no warranty on their cars - big mistake. Same as our laminators - we forgot to impose a warranty problem if people didn't buy our film. These days we stand up and be counted on service and value . We don't take $10 per gallon clothing dye and sell it for $900 per gallon as some big named companies have.The law on inks was tested in USA some years ago and the warranty hold by the printer supplier was overturned. Set a precedence that you won't hear too much about. Still I do believe genuine fair valued support should be rewarded and so of course there is always a place for you and I out there.
                        End of rant.

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