Between the KM C8000 and Xerox 800

[chadfield]

We are in the process of looking at these two machines and I have a couple of questions for this group.

Xerox qualifies Xerox papers only and I've heard different opinions regarding whether or not I could run non-certified papers through the 800. Some have said as long as I run digital papers I should be fine but my thought is, and from what I've also heard, if I start having issues Xerox would question my use of stock not qualified by Xerox. I would think this would could be a real service issue so most would recommend using the more expensive Xerox papers to alleviate finger pointing. I would like to know what the 800 users recommend.

Concerning the optional clear toner on the 800, are you seeing much request for this?

I did a water test on a C8000 sheet and the Xerox 800 sheet where I tried to duplicate rain drops on the sheet. After sitting on the sheet for 2 minutes and gently wiping the excess, the Xerox toner was removed when wiped off but the C8000 sheet was fine. Are users concerned with how a digital sheet will hold up to "rain" and is this typical of a toner based product. I was quite impressed that the Konica sheet showed no signs of degrading.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[bwalter]

I looked at both machines as well and after comparing features and pricing, went with the C8000. Granted, I did have two other KM machines and was happy with the service.
As far as paper types, I pretty much order whatever stock I want from our supplier and haven't had any issues yet. As for the toner durability, resistance to water hasn't come up as an issue, but I do know that overall the KM prints seem very resistant to scuffing, scratching, etc.
The only edge the 800 had for me over the C8000 was the clear toner, but in our opinion, it didn't stand out like a spot UV coating would, and we don't really have much call for that, so we didn't see the benefit of paying more for less. It's a neat feature, but in my mind it depends on the business and customers that you deal with. Some companies have a customer base that's looking for specialty items like that, where in our case, most of our business is postcards, flyers, etc. and there's not much call for anything fancy.
Bob

 

[chadfield]

Thanks, that's all good information. How did the install on the C8000 go and is your up-time what you would expect?

 

[bwalter]

Thanks, that's all good information. How did the install on the C8000 go and is your up-time what you would expect?

We had it installed at the end of August and outside of some tweaks in the first week, I've been running solid since then. We have had some technical issues, but we've got some good techs in our area, so I'm happy with the up-time. I will say, though, that I've only put about 500,000 clicks on it since install. Most of them were with 100# gloss cover and lots of heavy toner coverage, which is harder on the machine. I do know that another company in the area put 9 of them in and is running them 24/7 so they have a tech on hand almost every day.

The one thing to remember is that you can't directly compare this type of machine to offset equipment, because so much more of it is electronic than mechanical. I've worked with Oce, Nexpress, Ricoh, and KM equipment at different companies, and the big difference between the success or failure of the machines was largely dependent on the service techs and the machine operators. If you haven't dealt with KM before or don't have a good feel for the service, see if you can find someone else in your area that can give you an idea of what to expect.

 

[chadfield]

I appreciate the information. We actually did talk with a local install and received a very good report on the service techs. I'm feeling very confident in the service program KM has developed and have met the service manager twice. We will install the equipment in our Prepress department, myself and my Prepress techs will operate it until the workload demands another option. This is our first machine so lot's of interesting times ahead.

 

[bertman98]

Konica 8000

Konica 8000

We are in the process of looking at these two machines and I have a couple of questions for this group.

Xerox qualifies Xerox papers only and I've heard different opinions regarding whether or not I could run non-certified papers through the 800. Some have said as long as I run digital papers I should be fine but my thought is, and from what I've also heard, if I start having issues Xerox would question my use of stock not qualified by Xerox. I would think this would could be a real service issue so most would recommend using the more expensive Xerox papers to alleviate finger pointing. I would like to know what the 800 users recommend.

Concerning the optional clear toner on the 800, are you seeing much request for this?

I did a water test on a C8000 sheet and the Xerox 800 sheet where I tried to duplicate rain drops on the sheet. After sitting on the sheet for 2 minutes and gently wiping the excess, the Xerox toner was removed when wiped off but the C8000 sheet was fine. Are users concerned with how a digital sheet will hold up to "rain" and is this typical of a toner based product. I was quite impressed that the Konica sheet showed no signs of degrading.

Thanks for the feedback.

We have two Konica 8000 machines. same usual problems that all companies have with digital printing. scewing issues at times but Konica is always there to fix them. We can run most papers without a problem. We have the best Konica service team in the entire world which means a lot. we have had Xerox in the past and Konica service is much better. We did not see any value in the clear coat when we looked at the Xerox 800. all in all we have been very happy with the 8000. biggest problem we have had is with the Fiery, and that is a Fiery problem, they are installing new software in the next few week. Hope this helps

 

[arossetti]

We have an 800 and use anything from offset 14pt kromkote to Xerox paper and have 0 issues. Digital sheet, non digital does not matter for us. We have the clear toner but are unable to sell it. The 800 is a faster machine then the 8000 when you are not printing single sided 24# 8.5x11's if that is an issue for you. The 800 will run at rated speed up to 350gsm.


My suggestion to you would be to take a case of the stock you use the most to demo at each machine. Don't let the rumors of stock not running in the 800 deter you.

 

[rockin57rod]

everyone points a finger at the stock...that's the stock answer to any problem!

I would suggest that you vist a few technical sites and find out what the guys that fix these machines think....it's amazing what you can find out when you talk to a tech'

 

[printer in heart]

We are in the process of looking at these two machines and I have a couple of questions for this group.

Xerox qualifies Xerox papers only and I've heard different opinions regarding whether or not I could run non-certified papers through the 800. Some have said as long as I run digital papers I should be fine but my thought is, and from what I've also heard, if I start having issues Xerox would question my use of stock not qualified by Xerox. I would think this would could be a real service issue so most would recommend using the more expensive Xerox papers to alleviate finger pointing. I would like to know what the 800 users recommend.

Concerning the optional clear toner on the 800, are you seeing much request for this?

I did a water test on a C8000 sheet and the Xerox 800 sheet where I tried to duplicate rain drops on the sheet. After sitting on the sheet for 2 minutes and gently wiping the excess, the Xerox toner was removed when wiped off but the C8000 sheet was fine. Are users concerned with how a digital sheet will hold up to "rain" and is this typical of a toner based product. I was quite impressed that the Konica sheet showed no signs of degrading.

Thanks for the feedback.

Hello, I've been running Xerox 1000 for over a year using all kinds of paper, from offset 50lb to coated paper and I have no problems at all, Most of the time I use Supreme Silk paper. When it comes to cover stock, I like to use Xerox Elite Gloss Cover. The reason for it during folding /making booklets, ink doesn’t crack as much as on other covers.

Clear Toner - I have a few jobs, but I don't think you need to get it unless you have a need for it. I like my Xerox techs and they help me a lot if I have any copy quality issues. But I have no complains about my printer.

 

[chadfield]

It sounds like we would most likely not be confined to Xerox stocks if we went that direction, definitely would need more research though.
That's what I've heard about the clear toner... pretty cool, just not much request.
Thanks for all input.

 

[lvg]

We use the KM C8000 for almost 900.000 clicks now. My advice: buy the KM only if the tech support is available all the time for you. That makes all the difference.

 

[[email protected]]

Sorry but I have to say "F" xerox and their paper fraud. Most of their digital line is Hammermill and Hammermill is fine paper in general but less expensive than Xerox branded paper.

Xerox is just defrauded their customers by forcing the X brand of paper. No other reason for it. Actually most other brands of paper will work just fine as well.

We are in the process of looking at these two machines and I have a couple of questions for this group.

Xerox qualifies Xerox papers only and I've heard different opinions regarding whether or not I could run non-certified papers through the 800. Some have said as long as I run digital papers I should be fine but my thought is, and from what I've also heard, if I start having issues Xerox would question my use of stock not qualified by Xerox. I would think this would could be a real service issue so most would recommend using the more expensive Xerox papers to alleviate finger pointing. I would like to know what the 800 users recommend.

Concerning the optional clear toner on the 800, are you seeing much request for this?

I did a water test on a C8000 sheet and the Xerox 800 sheet where I tried to duplicate rain drops on the sheet. After sitting on the sheet for 2 minutes and gently wiping the excess, the Xerox toner was removed when wiped off but the C8000 sheet was fine. Are users concerned with how a digital sheet will hold up to "rain" and is this typical of a toner based product. I was quite impressed that the Konica sheet showed no signs of degrading.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Craig]

When it comes to paper handle it this way. Run whatever you want, but keep some of the xerox stock on hand. When you have an issue and they say its the paper, duplicate it on their stock and tell them to shove it and fix the machine. I had to send paper samples to Rochester to have them check it. I laughed my ass off at the lame report they sent back. I would bet my lease payment if I sent their paper up in a different wrapper they would come to the same "canned" response. What a joke!!

Did you ever notice that any "non-xerox" paper is only iGen certified! I have NEVER seen a sheet that was certified to run on any machine other than the over priced, energy hungry iGen.

 

[[email protected]]

Out of the hundreds of brands and types of papers I've tested myself and sold only about 1 in 100 (1%) won't run on a device at all or is that crappy and only about 1 in 20 (5%) is crappy enough that it is problematic on two sided copying.

Any paper I have ever seen will still leave paper dust but machines should be cleaned periodically anyway.

 

[Kunnajar]

When it comes to paper handle it this way. Run whatever you want, but keep some of the xerox stock on hand. When you have an issue and they say its the paper, duplicate it on their stock and tell them to shove it and fix the machine. I had to send paper samples to Rochester to have them check it. I laughed my ass off at the lame report they sent back. I would bet my lease payment if I sent their paper up in a different wrapper they would come to the same "canned" response. What a joke!!

Did you ever notice that any "non-xerox" paper is only iGen certified! I have NEVER seen a sheet that was certified to run on any machine other than the over priced, energy hungry iGen.

Its funny that [email protected] the KM dealer always likes the negative posts about Xerox

Just a thought.

 

[[email protected]]

Well it's mostly because I think the posts are funny. And I'm not exactly a KM dealer per se. I pick and choose what models I will carry.

I've dealt with every brand there is actually and really don't have any loyalty to any particular brand. Rather, I tend to have favorites as far as lines, series, or models go.

Every manufacturer has models that I love and hate.

But regardless of the brand in question...I do know bullsh*t when I see it. And although there is some truth and basis for bad paper being problems for machines; it's not the big deal that Xerox makes it to be. Especially since Xerox doesn't actually make their own paper but conveniently use it as an excuse every time something goes wrong...and at the same time failing to mention that you can use other brands like Hammermill since Hammermill makes much of the Xerox office line of papers.

Its funny that [email protected] the KM dealer always likes the negative posts about Xerox

Just a thought.

 

[rsands]

We just installed a KM C8000 and its warmup times are shocking. We send a test sheet to print and it goes into "Machine Warming Up" Cycle....constantly. takes 5-6minutes between test sheet and the machine ready to print again. Konica just shrugged their shoulders are it

Great quality of it though

 

[kalindd]

[Subject] "Warming up. Please wait." message
[Description]
The control panel periodically indicates "Warming up. Please wait." There is a delay of up to two minutes between jobs.
[Solution]
CAUSE: Incorrect setting.
SOLUTION:
Change the setting of Fusing Stability (Tray switching time).
[Utility]-[02 User Setting]-[03 Common Setting]-[Fusing Stability (Mixed media)]
Select [Speed].
change also Fusing stability [ quick start] to Speed.

I believe this will solve your problem.

 

[jetpilot_dave]

Firstly, I will make it clear that I work for Fuji Xerox.

NON STANDARD STOCK - Now, about paper, the PC800/1000 is DESIGNED to take offset/cut stock. It have two de-burring rollers that work only from the lower two drawers and not the high capacity feeder to the left of the machine. I find that the KM8000 is not the same catagory machine as the FX800/1000, it just doest spec up when compared properly. The FX800/1000 has large paper turning circle which is why it can easily handle 350gsm stock double sided at full rate speed. The KM8000 has very tight turning circle for paper and does struggle with staying aligned when duplexing.

FUSER - The fuser belt system in the FX 800/1000 is 500mm long, which means that an SRA3 piece of paper only has to touch the belt in any spot once to fuse. This is important, as an ex-technician, smaller fuser rollers/belts will start to cool down the instant a piece of paper touches it. This means that the fusing temperature is different from one end of the page to the other and can cause banding and uneven finish noticable when you are doing solids. It also has an auto cleaning roller in the fuser which rejuvinates the fuser belt periodically.

I believe that the KM8000 is placed somewhere between the Fuji Xerox PC700 and the PC800/1000 and if you are after a cheaper device and maintaning full rated speed, back to back registration and fusing consistency for solids are not that important, then look seriously at the KM. As someone else mentioned, make sure you check the service dealer in your area as this is the most important aspect of your decision. It doesn't matter if it is KM or FX, if the service dealer does not have experience in your area you are asking for trouble. Dont buy a machine and you be the 'test dummy' for it in your area.

Good luck with your decision.