Copier Sales and Tech Throw Down

[GregNac19]

Can we just stay on this thread to talk about how great our machines are (Xerox, Canon, Konica Minolta, Kodak, Oce)

Then we can leave everyone else alone.

I will start
I think the 700 is better than sliced bread.

 

[cjwworld]

we just bought an OCe cs 650.. Don't have experience on it to tell you anything about it..just installed today.. whoohoo.. just got to learn it with the fiery Workstation, inposition, etc.

 

[Keith]

My Ilumina can print on 160lb COVER. It's awesome.



And it makes sandwiches.


Keith

 

[GregNac19]

My Ilumina can print on 160lb COVER. It's awesome.



And it makes sandwiches.


Keith

Are they hot or cold sandwiches? A Philly Steak & Cheese would be nice.

The Xerox 700 does allow you to get ESPN and Showtime for an extra $25.00 a month!

 

[TWinqvist]

Hey! Stop the Press!

Hey! Stop the Press!

Our sales guy is in the NXP M700 doing some services to get it run even more smoothly and he is very hungry! Can you send that sandwich to us via W2P, he's right here in the middle of fixing unit under the pressure roll!

 

[Kevin H]

we just bought an OCe cs 650.. Don't have experience on it to tell you anything about it..just installed today.. whoohoo.. just got to learn it with the fiery Workstation, inposition, etc.

Yet ANOTHER satisfied KM customer....

That is a Bizhubpro C6500.
Enjoy my friend...enjoy

 

[cjwworld]

Yet ANOTHER satisfied KM customer....

That is a Bizhubpro C6500.
Enjoy my friend...enjoy

So you have this machine.. It has good marks right?.. So far its running good.. we are installing an Black and white Machine its an Oce but I don't know the model # yet.. so, we have jobs booked up on both machines.. The machine was supposed to be installed a week ago so we have been printing on the 650 while working around the installers for the b&w..

 

[Kevin H]

So you have this machine.. It has good marks right?.. So far its running good.. we are installing an Black and white Machine its an Oce but I don't know the model # yet.. so, we have jobs booked up on both machines.. The machine was supposed to be installed a week ago so we have been printing on the 650 while working around the installers for the b&w..

I actually support/train people on this, and other professional KM devices.

It is a GREAT machine, here in the Toronto area we have 100's installed and running very well.
You will be very happy with what this machine will do for you, Oce made the right choice by adding it to their lineup.

We have also had FABULOUS results with the OCE BW products so again, a very good choice.
This HIGH volume BW printers will soon dominate the market, especially with the KM team also promoting this product.

 

[Keith]

The Ilumina only makes hot sandwiches. And unfortunatly, I didn't get the Sandwich Sending W2P Module for it. That was and extra $20,000. LOL!!!!!

And this next question/comment has nothing to do with the awesomeness of my Ilumina, which can also print on trees (through the bypass tray of course).

I'm sensing a lot of KM cheerleading here. And funny thing, I'm considering a C451. Other than sandwiches and trees, I print a lot of heavy gloss text, card stock, heavy coverage and stuff with a lot of gradients. I average 7000 clicks a month and am growing fast. Is this machine a good place to start with KM? Will it handle what I need it to and grow with me. I am replacing a Canon ir3220 with a Fiery. Last question, is the Emperon Printing System as good as the dealer is telling me? I am inclined to believe the dealer since I am not so impressed with the Fiery.

I apologize for asking a serious question in a not so serious thread.

And one last thing, my Canon ImagePrograf W8400 is most awesomenest too. I can run that machine all day long with one arm behind my back and with my eyes closed and get flawlessly beautiful high res prints. That machine is my baby.

Keith

 

[GregNac19]

The Ilumina only makes hot sandwiches. And unfortunatly, I didn't get the Sandwich Sending W2P Module for it. That was and extra $20,000. LOL!!!!!

And this next question/comment has nothing to do with the awesomeness of my Ilumina, which can also print on trees (through the bypass tray of course).

I'm sensing a lot of KM cheerleading here. And funny thing, I'm considering a C451. Other than sandwiches and trees, I print a lot of heavy gloss text, card stock, heavy coverage and stuff with a lot of gradients. I average 7000 clicks a month and am growing fast. Is this machine a good place to start with KM? Will it handle what I need it to and grow with me. I am replacing a Canon ir3220 with a Fiery. Last question, is the Emperon Printing System as good as the dealer is telling me? I am inclined to believe the dealer since I am not so impressed with the Fiery.

I apologize for asking a serious question in a not so serious thread.

And one last thing, my Canon ImagePrograf W8400 is most awesomenest too. I can run that machine all day long with one arm behind my back and with my eyes closed and get flawlessly beautiful high res prints. That machine is my baby.

Keith

Sorry to burst your bubble but the bizhub 451 is an office product. Why don't you look at the DC242. Way better quality, customer replaceable units, 2400X2400 dpi.

 

[UberTech]

The Ilumina only makes hot sandwiches. And unfortunatly, I didn't get the Sandwich Sending W2P Module for it. That was and extra $20,000. LOL!!!!!

And this next question/comment has nothing to do with the awesomeness of my Ilumina, which can also print on trees (through the bypass tray of course).

I'm sensing a lot of KM cheerleading here. And funny thing, I'm considering a C451. Other than sandwiches and trees, I print a lot of heavy gloss text, card stock, heavy coverage and stuff with a lot of gradients. I average 7000 clicks a month and am growing fast. Is this machine a good place to start with KM? Will it handle what I need it to and grow with me. I am replacing a Canon ir3220 with a Fiery. Last question, is the Emperon Printing System as good as the dealer is telling me? I am inclined to believe the dealer since I am not so impressed with the Fiery.

I apologize for asking a serious question in a not so serious thread.

And one last thing, my Canon ImagePrograf W8400 is most awesomenest too. I can run that machine all day long with one arm behind my back and with my eyes closed and get flawlessly beautiful high res prints. That machine is my baby.

Keith

Nope, C451 is good start in an office.

2400DPI at 1 bit. KM machines are 8 bit. Essentially this means to create the same colour the Xerox has to rasterise a dot the size of 600dpi machine from 4 dots. To print a colour that is 100% of a process you could argue the point otherwise not much benefit.

 

[GregNac19]

Nope, C451 is good start in an office.

2400DPI at 1 bit. KM machines are 8 bit. Essentially this means to create the same colour the Xerox has to rasterise a dot the size of 600dpi machine from 4 dots. To print a colour that is 100% of a process you could argue the point otherwise not much benefit.

How many times do we have to go round ride? If 2400X2400 was not desirable then why is National Geographic printing with this resolution. I think all would agree with quality of the prints for the magazine.
If 600X600 was so great, why do presses not use this? Why would I want move work off a press to make a totally different look? The 2400X2400 is the output of the press which is why the Xerox matches a press much better than KM machines.
The main reason you don't like the 2400X2400 is you don't have it. Xerox will give you both options 600X600 or 2400X2400.

Lets do the math 24000X2400X1 (5,760,000 addressable dots)
600X600X8 (2,880,000 addressable dots)
2 times the information!

 

[UberTech]

[quoute]Lets do the math 24000X2400X1 (5,760,000 addressable dots)
600X600X8 (2,880,000 addressable dots)
2 times the information![/QUOTE]

This reiterates you have no idea of the difference between 1-bit and 8-bit.

For example..

In the attached image your beloved xerox on the left has 4 more dots than our 1 dot, Agreed. But each dot is either off or on. So in reality for each equivlent dot you can only produce 16 shades. On the right the KM will increase of decrease the dot size to get the same colour. The difference? Our dot can produce 255 steps in that dot and yours produces 16. 255 shades per dot compared to 16 hmmm thats easy math.

 

[GregNac19]

[quoute]Lets do the math 24000X2400X1 (5,760,000 addressable dots)
600X600X8 (2,880,000 addressable dots)
2 times the information!

This reiterates you have no idea of the difference between 1-bit and 8-bit.

For example..

In the attached image your beloved xerox on the left has 4 more dots than our 1 dot, Agreed. But each dot is either off or on. So in reality for each equivlent dot you can only produce 4 shades. On the right the KM will increase of decrease the dot size to get the same colour. The difference? Our dot can produce 255 steps in that dot and yours produces 4. 255 shades per dot compared to 4 hmmm thats easy math.[/QUOTE]

Is this where you stop. Nothing about better quality, press like, or the fact that major printing is done 2400X2400 dpi?

 

[Craig]

Hay guys, (uber and greg) where can I read more information about the resolution differences? Not regarding KM vs Xerox, but 2400 x 2400 x 1 vs 600 x 600 x 8.

 

[UberTech]

Is this where you stop. Nothing about better quality, press like, or the fact that major printing is done 2400X2400 dpi?

Ahhh isn't it obvious that 8-bit is far superior to 1 bit? I mean you would need a raster cell 16x16 (255 shades) to produce what 1 dot on a KM will do! Do you think the IGEN is 8 bit because it is inferior? One would suggest not.

I think the goal here is to atleast match offset right? I can pick up any magazine and say yep we can match that. Infact we need to run a coarser dot (DOT2) to match.

I would like to see an offset that runs 2400x2400. Infact I very much doubt this is the case except for national geographic apparently.

So yeah, drop the resolution argument because it's not one you can win because we are talking different technologies.

 

[GusG]

I would like to see an offset that runs 2400x2400. Infact I very much doubt this is the case except for national geographic apparently.

What really matters on an offset press is the screen (lpi, lines per inch made up of clusters of 16 (4x4) dots) and in traditional PostScript you need a resolution (dpi) of 16 times the screen you want to output in order to take advantage of the full range of 256 greyscales per colour you are printing.

So to get a screen of 150 (which is very much run of the mill and nothing special, I would think National Geographic prints at a higher screen) you need 150lpi x 16 = 2400 dpi on your CtP or CtF machine, a 200 line screen needs 3200dpi. So in that sense an offset does run 2400x2400 pretty much standard. There are interpolation methods that can give up to a claimed 64,000 greyscales instead of 256 so that you need fewer dpi to make a given screen but since all such CtP and CtF equipment does at least 2400 dpi why not do it at that resolution and play it safe.

 

[Kevin H]

What really matters on an offset press is the screen (lpi, lines per inch made up of clusters of 16 (4x4) dots) and in traditional PostScript you need a resolution (dpi) of 16 times the screen you want to output in order to take advantage of the full range of 256 greyscales per colour you are printing.

So to get a screen of 150 (which is very much run of the mill and nothing special, I would think National Geographic prints at a higher screen) you need 150lpi x 16 = 2400 dpi on your CtP or CtF machine, a 200 line screen needs 3200dpi. So in that sense an offset does run 2400x2400 pretty much standard. There are interpolation methods that can give up to a claimed 64,000 greyscales instead of 256 so that you need fewer dpi to make a given screen but since all such CtP and CtF equipment does at least 2400 dpi why not do it at that resolution and play it safe.

Well done GusG.
I VERY compreshensive and accurate post.
Here at KM we have an INTERNAL document which really explains why interpolation is bad.
Of course we save this document for future customers only.

once it is explained it is quite easy to see through the "smoke".

We also have a GREAT test file here that totally debunks the "jagged edges" that the interpolation "addresses".
This is not an issue for us here, in fact we look forward to this topic coming up with conversations with futur customers.

Again, well done everyone.

 

[che.c]

Can we just stay on this thread to talk about how great our machines are (Xerox, Canon, Konica Minolta, Kodak, Oce)

Then we can leave everyone else alone.

Well it went about a page before it turned into a bit-measuring contest.

 

[GregNac19]

Well done GusG.
I VERY compreshensive and accurate post.
Here at KM we have an INTERNAL document which really explains why interpolation is bad.
Of course we save this document for future customers only.

once it is explained it is quite easy to see through the "smoke".

We also have a GREAT test file here that totally debunks the "jagged edges" that the interpolation "addresses".
This is not an issue for us here, in fact we look forward to this topic coming up with conversations with futur customers.

Again, well done everyone.

Again, Xerox can do both resolutions. The fact is KM can not do the 2400X2400 and now is can't be as good.
Remember, Xerox had the 3535 and the DOC12 that did 600X600 8bit. Now 2400X2400 (which is closer to press output) is the new standard for Xerox. However, as I said before, we can still do both depending on what the customer/printer likes.