do you convert to CMYK before sending to RIP?

[lfelton]

Quick "poll": do you tend to convert files to CMYK in pre-press before you send them to the RIP, or do you send them as received and let the RIP sort it out?

 

[leetaylor]

When sending to the Fiery on our Xerox 5000 I tend to leave the RGB alone and let the Fiery make the conversion. Seems to work okay for us.

 

[PineyBob]

Note discussion here http://printplanet.com/forums/digital-printing-discussion/16465-rgb-vs-cmyk

 

[Colorblind]

We convert to CMYK at application level before sending to our Fiery rip since the conversion engine in the rip is not the same as in Adobe applications thus giving a different printed result (darker and oversaturated from the Fiery rip)

 

[PineyBob]

We convert to CMYK at application level before sending to our Fiery rip since the conversion engine in the rip is not the same as in Adobe applications thus giving a different printed result (darker and oversaturated from the Fiery rip)

You do realize that you're spending major league dollars in excess labor when all that would be required is for you to experiment with the settings in Adobe to match Fiery output?

Additionally, you've totally negated the primary reason to buy a Fiery RIP and that is the color management tools.

You could pay me to visit for a week and get your color management set correctly and teach your staff how to use the Fiery properly and not spend one tenth of what you're spending now in additional time over the course of the year. Unless you have some very specific workflow you haven't shared you're losing thosands

 

[random]

You could pay me to visit for a week and get your color management set correctly and teach your staff how to use the Fiery properly and not spend one tenth of what you're spending now in additional time over the course of the year. Unless you have some very specific workflow you haven't shared you're losing thosands

I wouldn't get this guy to colour match lego blocks let alone try and teach me anything for money, but thats just my 2 cents. If you find that RGB images are too saturated you might want to look at the rendering intent in the fiery. For some reason the default setting on some rips is presention which pushes all the colors to the edges (of the gamut). Try printing without any conversion and changing intent to see if it becomes more appealing.

 

[PineyBob]

I wouldn't get this guy to colour match lego blocks let alone try and teach me anything for money, but thats just my 2 cents. If you find that RGB images are too saturated you might want to look at the rendering intent in the fiery. For some reason the default setting on some rips is presention which pushes all the colors to the edges (of the gamut). Try printing without any conversion and changing intent to see if it becomes more appealing.

Was that first line called for Random? I mean really!! I'm new here and I don't know what the specific rules are, however I'm pretty certain that personal insults are generally frowned upon. The anonimity of the internet gives some people the feeling that it's OK to insult and attempt to build themselves up at the expense of others.so have at it Random.

The above being said, Rendering intents is a good place to start except for the fact it's generally accepted that one start at the beginning of the workflow. There are many places along the workflow where one needs to ensure settings are matched.

Helpful Hint - establish what color settings will be default in your software applications. Example my version of Photshop is currently set to sRGB. The reason is I import photo's into Power Point and I find it gives me the best result so it happens to be my default setting.

The challenging part of getting good color consistantly with a minimum of operator intervention is that oft times the answers to questions are "It Depends". There are a ton of variables that need to be considered when attempting to match and manage color.

In direct answer to the OP's original question it is generally accepted that the methodology mentioned by Lee taylor is the way to go.

To take full advantage of the Fiery solution you really need to know how the settings on Colorwise work and what they do.

 

[Colorblind]

You do realize that you're spending major league dollars in excess labor when all that would be required is for you to experiment with the settings in Adobe to match Fiery output?

Additionally, you've totally negated the primary reason to buy a Fiery RIP and that is the color management tools.

You could pay me to visit for a week and get your color management set correctly and teach your staff how to use the Fiery properly and not spend one tenth of what you're spending now in additional time over the course of the year. Unless you have some very specific workflow you haven't shared you're losing thosands

OK, let's cool down a bit

1- We have 2 DC-242 with Fiery rip and they are NOT for digital production so no thousands of dollars of time loss
2- We are an advertising agency with over 120 users printing to these machines with only a few that know the difference between RGB and CMYK so I won't even talk about the majority of users (customer service, accountants and so on) knowledge or interest into the subtilities of color management.
3- I got the Fiery rip set up (yes I'm using cmyk simulation profiles and I went into the process of profiling paper stock for the 2 machines and I am calibrating both machines every second day) so color is consistent with our 2 other high-end proofing systems (Prediction Polaproof and Epson 9800 hooked-up to our ApogeeX workflow) which are both SWOP-flavored calibrated / profiled to what we mostly do: magazine advertising.
4- I tested every combination and yes sRGB photographic intent combined with simulation profile source in the Fiery rip color set-up gives a decent result but NOT the same as what conversions made by Adobe applications would do since Fiery and Adobe color conversion engines are different.
5- So we have to be consistent and the only way is to use the same conversion engine before printing as we would do when sending jobs through our workflow or when exporting to PDFX1a.
6- So that being said, some people are happy with a Delta E difference of 10-15 when comparing color. I'm not.

 

[PineyBob]

OK, let's cool down a bit

4- I tested every combination and yes sRGB photographic intent combined with simulation profile source in the Fiery rip color set-up gives a decent result but NOT the same as what conversions made by Adobe applications would do since Fiery and Adobe color conversion engines are different.
5- So we have to be consistent and the only way is to use the same conversion engine before printing as we would do when sending jobs through our workflow or when exporting to PDFX1a.
6- So that being said, some people are happy with a Delta E difference of 10-15 when comparing color. I'm not.

I agree that in this day and age a Delta E difference between 10 and 15 is unacceptable. Let's see if we can figure this out.

For clarity we'll call the high end proofing devices, "Proofers" and the DC RIPS, "Fiery's"

If I'm reading your post correctly you have 2 possible workflows that need to match as close as possible????

One which sends files through the ApogeeX workflow which I assume uses the Color Tune Software, then prints to the Proofers?

The second workflow is from the workstations to the Fiery workflow?

The stated goal being to have color with a Delta E well below 10 between the 2 workflows?

If you run everything through Apogee and export as a PDF X1a then it prints correctly to either workflow?

It sounds like you're doing all the right things but the one thing that puzzles me is the RGB to CMYK conversion. Do you convert from RGB in Adobe for the Apogee workflow or just the Fiery workflow?

Why not let the ApogeeX w/Color Tune be the final arbiter of all color or does this create bottlenecks brought on by others who use the equipment who are casual users?

My initial thought was you were running a print shop NOT an agency and as you so gently reminded me agency work is a totally different animal.

In the classroom world you want the file to retain the most color information possible prior to CMYK conversion. in the real world with "Get the Damn Job Done NOW" pressures things are a little different. I think the solution is right out there as you're already closer than most. BTW what does Xerox say?

 

[PeterA]

So what ICC profile do u use when you do the conversion

 

[random]

Was that first line called for Random? I mean really!! I'm new here and I don't know what the specific rules are, however I'm pretty certain that personal insults are generally frowned upon. The anonimity of the internet gives some people the feeling that it's OK to insult and attempt to build themselves up at the expense of others.so have at it Random.

The rules are that this is a community forum unless I have misunderstood the concept in which case it should be something like experts exchange where you pay for answers.

Being community based everyone helps everyone else out here for free and doesn't try and solicit for business. Otherwise this constitutes spam in my mind and I think we all feel the same way about spam.

I’m not a moderator but I think most would agree that we would prefer that if you have something constructive to say please say it. Don’t say I can fix your problem for a fee, this sux and is deconstructive to the community spirit.

 

[Vee]

Quick "poll": do you tend to convert files to CMYK in pre-press before you send them to the RIP, or do you send them as received and let the RIP sort it out?

In my experience with the iGen3-110, and the DocuSP RIP, images were far more pleasing when sending RGB to the DocuSP and allowing the RIP to convert on output.

 

[PineyBob]

The rules are that this is a community forum unless I have misunderstood the concept in which case it should be something like experts exchange where you pay for answers.

Being community based everyone helps everyone else out here for free and doesn't try and solicit for business. Otherwise this constitutes spam in my mind and I think we all feel the same way about spam.

I’m not a moderator but I think most would agree that we would prefer that if you have something constructive to say please say it. Don’t say I can fix your problem for a fee, this sux and is deconstructive to the community spirit.

Well I wasn't soliciting business I was making a point regarding cost. As in the cost of changing every image from RGB to CMYK in Adobe.

If I wanted to solicit business I would not be so tacky as to ask in an open community forum. As for the Lego comment I had to chuckle. Way back when the CLC550 W/Fiery 200i was the best you could get. I had the US Lego location as a customer and helped them work through the nuance of what was then called Fiery Print Calibrator in order to match the colors on the blocks.

Let's see what Colorblind has to say as I asked some questions and the goal here is to help not snipe. I did however notice the lack of apology which I find telling. All the same have a great day.

 

[Craig]

PineyBob, you'll have to excuse Random, his attitude shows when he is drinking too much Konica Minolta KoolAid.

I for one let the Fiery convert to CMYK.

 

[random]

You could pay me to visit for a week and get your color management set correctly and teach your staff how to use the Fiery properly and not spend one tenth of what you're spending now in additional time over the course of the year. Unless you have some very specific workflow you haven't shared you're losing thosands

About PineyBob

Company
self employed consultant
Job Title
Owner
Company Type
Industry Consultant

Yeah, sorry this screams solicit.

 

[PineyBob]

About PineyBob

Company
self employed consultant
Job Title
Owner
Company Type
Industry Consultant

Yeah, sorry this screams solicit.

Well Soliciting in this community would still be wrong. I'm a Self Employed SALES TRAINER who happens to have spent a lifetime putting Ink/Toner on Paper.

My first Color copier sale was 3 Xerox 6500's.

I was there when Fiery Print Calibrator was released with the EFI Color Plug in was loaded into Quark. Ever use EFI's Software called "Cachet"?

Ever hear of a CF80? Well I led the nation in CF80 Sales one year, Same for the Ricoh 8115. If it printed in color and was a piece of crap I sold them, trained operators how to use them.

Now then shall we attempt to help ColorBlind and the others here or shall I just kneel and genuflect at the Konica-Minolta Altar?

 

[random]

Im not debating your qualifications.

 

[Craig]

Im not debating your qualifications.

Really?: What was your point?

One shouldn't throw stones in a glass house Random.

 

[michaelejahn]

hi there lfelton,

you wrote;

"Mr. Kauffman, In the Conference room, with a JDF file.."

no, wait, that was left over in my clipboard from another reply ...

you wrote;

"We convert to CMYK at application level before sending to our Fiery rip..."

Okay, so - you lost me when you used the word "sending" - please clarify (pretty please?)

1. You drop a (some kind of file) into a watched folder, and that is sent to the RIP Queue ?
2. You "Print" to some "Printer Driver" from (some application) with 'some settings' ...
3. Your idea of "send" is to export to PDF and then "send" that to some cue (or to someone who prints it for you?)

I cannot save you thousands of minor league or major league dollars, but I can say that if you are printing from InDesign or Acrobat or Photoshop - no matter if you converted you rgb to cmyk or if you left your rgb's as rgb - you most likely can change a setting or two and get the same identical results as you would either way - now, if you were printing from Microfot word, well, there may be a little more fussy business related to setting up a cue on the RIP, but unless you are doing something exotic like color swatch matching - well - then you might look into ALWAN or GMG or CGS - and again, it matters little if you are printing RGB or CMYK to a Firey then...

 

[lfelton]

Thanks all for your responses.

@michaelejahn thanks for your input, but you're replying to a post by "Colorblind", not me, so I can't answer any of your questions.

I'm currently trying to help out my pre-press department and my question arose out of that. We're investigating further automation so that we can provide real time proofing for some of our clients and lights out press ready file preparation for some products. At the moment files are converted to CMYK prior to soft proofing, otherwise out of gamut colours would not be visible to clients and so that we can keep colour consistency across platforms. We drive multiple RIPS from 4 different vendors driving CTP for litho, multi-vendor digital and multi-vendor large format. Colour accuracy and consistency across all hardware platforms is key as we print the large format, short run and longer run for the same campaign for clients. We are still very much in the learning phase for effective colour management, but most of the time we get spectrophotometer readings of off the sheet from all platforms which are consistently within +- 1-5% of the electronic file.

I had read that some printers, including some big ones send their files as RGB and let the RIP sort it out and I couldn't figure out why they would do that unless they were a very small shop with no effective colour control. I still can't figure that one out, so for now we're going to continue to convert to CMYK at the point of proofing.

Thanks again for your input.