final decision X700 VS C6501

[bigben]

I've been in the wide format printing business for several years and would like to buy a new machine to offer new products. This will be my first copier and I would like to get your opinion. I know it's not my first post on the subject, but I've learned alot since the others ones.

1- Xerox 700 + 2 oversize high capacity feeder + light production C finisher + booklet maker
-it's my favorite brand
-still have a bypass tray (good for me)
-25 sheets booklet
-100 sheet stapling
-include hole punching (good but don't really need it)
-include a post inserter (could be useful)
-have a total of 3 decurler
-can't add more finishing options.

2- Konica Minolta C6501 + 2 oversize high capacity feeder + FS-607 finisher
-don't have a bypass tray
-20 sheets booklet only (still ok for me)
-50 sheet stapling only (still ok for me)
-don' have the punch kit
-don't have a post inserter (sold separately)
-only have the internal decurler
-lots of possibility of expand modules.
-have different folding options (could be useful)

My main business will be making colour booklets and books (so the PB-502 perfect binder with KM will be a future buy).

-The service quality/delay is the same in my area
-The price per clic are the same

My main concern is the Xerox cost 15000$ more. Does the quality of the xerox worth the price difference?

The KM tech told me the C6501 don't need many decurler like the xerox because the toner and temperature is different. He also claim I could print letterhead that will be safe for any regular laser printer and not the xerox.

My pocket tell me to buy the KM but my heart say Xerox.

So with that said, what do you think?

 

[msaeger]

I don't buy the printing letter head deal. I get calls from customers who bought their letter head from a printers that ran it on a digital toner based machine and it screws up my machine. I don't think the claim it will run on any laser printer can stand up.

What are the prices of these things that the Xerox is 15K more that sounds like a big percentage.

 

[unoprint1]

We love our xerox 700.

 

[UberTech]

If your prepared to pay $15k more for the X700 I would probably spring for the SD-501 bookletmaker on the 65 and really open doors.

 

[bigben]

What are the prices of these things that the Xerox is 15K more that sounds like a big percentage.

xerox= 55k and KM= 40k

We love our xerox 700.

and would you still pay 15k more for the xerox? If yes, why?

If your prepared to pay $15k more for the X700 I would probably spring for the SD-501 bookletmaker on the 65 and really open doors.

Do you mean the SD-506? And could you give me more details about the decurler difference?

 

[UberTech]

The relay unit that you will need with the SD-506 is much better than the engine one and you can reform sheets as well if need be, great for NCR. What the salesman has probably forgotton to mention is the FS-607 has a size restriction of 311mm wide. So if you intend to focus on booklet making you might want to take this into consideration.

 

[bigben]

The relay unit that you will need with the SD-506 is much better than the engine one and you can reform sheets as well if need be, great for NCR. What the salesman has probably forgotton to mention is the FS-607 has a size restriction of 311mm wide. So if you intend to focus on booklet making you might want to take this into consideration.

ok, thanks. I will take this in consideration.

about the decurler, KM have one and the Xerox have 3 of them. What can you tell me about this difference?

 

[UberTech]

I don't know much about the 700 decurler. Essentially a c6501 with a relay unit technically has 3 decurlers, two in the engine, although pretty light weight and the RU itself. I have never seen a curly sheet come off a C6501 with a RU. Sheets delivered face up (weights over 256gsm) bypass one of the decurlers. Without a RU there is a bit of curl but it is manageable.

You really need to test this on each engine before you make a decison.

 

[arossetti]

I run everything from NCR to 14pt through my 700 and they come out bone straight. Also as I bet you know but for others who have not seen the 700 you program a decrul setting for each of your paper stocks. If by chance the pre-programmed setting isn't making the sheets perfectly straight on a certain run you have controls to adjust the curl on the fly as the job is running.

I believe you setup the decurl setting per your stocks on the km650x also but I forget if you are able to make adjustment as the job is running. Uber will have to let us know if you can adjust the curl settings without stopping the run.

 

[bigben]

I run everything from NCR to 14pt through my 700 and they come out bone straight. Also as I bet you know but for others who have not seen the 700 you program a decrul setting for each of your paper stocks. If by chance the pre-programmed setting isn't making the sheets perfectly straight on a certain run you have controls to adjust the curl on the fly as the job is running.

I believe you setup the decurl setting per your stocks on the km650x also but I forget if you are able to make adjustment as the job is running. Uber will have to let us know if you can adjust the curl settings without stopping the run.

ok, we will wait for the answer of Uber.

Since you have a 700, could you say that a 15k$ price difference worth it compared to the C6501? If both would be the same price, I would take the xerox. But 15k is alot of money...

 

[UberTech]

ok, we will wait for the answer of Uber.

Decurl settings are automatically set depending on stock choice. You would chose the curl reform only if you had a stock that was giving you a problem, it hardly gets used. The key difference here is the fuser technology in the c6501 is vastly superior to that in the x700. I’m not 100% but I think the x700 is a dual hard roller design so you have two hard rollers applying pressure so unless they are in perfect condition and perfect spring tension then your not going to have much luck getting a flat sheet out. Considering it is a disposable unit I doubt the accuracy required is actually applied.

The c6501 fuser unit is significantly more industrial and is refurbished at PM not chucked out. The key though is the fuser belt technology as found in the x800/1000 (they finally caught up). The fuser has one hard roller and one sponge roller within the fuser belt, which gives a really wide fuser nip thus requiring less pressure and reducing the chance of ripple.

C6500 left x800/1000 right.

 

[bigben]

Decurl settings are automatically set depending on stock choice. You would chose the curl reform only if you had a stock that was giving you a problem, it hardly gets used. The key difference here is the fuser technology in the c6501 is vastly superior to that in the x700. I’m not 100% but I think the x700 is a dual hard roller design so you have two hard rollers applying pressure so unless they are in perfect condition and perfect spring tension then your not going to have much luck getting a flat sheet out. Considering it is a disposable unit I doubt the accuracy required is actually applied.

The c6501 fuser unit is significantly more industrial and is refurbished at PM not chucked out. The key though is the fuser belt technology as found in the x800/1000 (they finally caught up). The fuser has one hard roller and one sponge roller within the fuser belt, which gives a really wide fuser nip thus requiring less pressure and reducing the chance of ripple.

wow! that was alot of explanation. So basically the C6501 as a better built then the X700? Is it the same answer for the overall machine?

 

[UberTech]

Thats a sh*tstorm Im not about to start but cosmetically you can tell which is the more substantial unit, open the trays and process section and have a look. End of the day you need to test test test, then, even if one is better than the other you need make sure they have the service to back it up.

 

[bigben]

...even if one is better than the other you need make sure they have the service to back it up.

What I have to check about the service? Both claim to be onsite within 4 hours and it is confirm by owners I've met. So I think they are the same...

 

[GusG]

The key though is the fuser belt technology as found in the x800/1000 (they finally caught up).

My old DC2060 has "fuser belt technology"

 

[arossetti]

My old DC2060 has "fuser belt technology"

Wow looks like KM finally caught up.

For the fuser, if your fuser goes bad on a 700 you take a new one out of a box and put the new one in. Downtime = 5min.

If a fuser goes bad on a km6500 you have to call service, wait for a tech, then have him fix it. Downtime = 4 hours plus. I'm a 24/7 shop so if my fuser was to go bad on a 6500 at 6pm on Friday I have to wait till Monday or pay for after hours service.

Do not listen to everything Uber says, he is so far up Mr. Matsuzaki he could tell you what was for breakfast. He is so biased that he makes himself an unreliable source of information.

Him trying to say that the rollers make the prints on a 700 curled is bogus. The decurl abilities are much better on a 700 then a 6500. You can program your stocks on the 6500 and 700 but if you have any climate change or your paper has more humidity in it then when your programmed your stocks the first time the curl will change - which is why being able to do it on the fly with a 700 is nice.

With all of that said I think the KM would be perfectly fine for your operation and save the 15k or by a piece of finishing equipment to expand your services.

 

[bigben]

to change from the FS-607 finisher to the SD-506, I think I have to go from internal fiery to the Creo. What price difference should I expect for those change, roughly?

 

[JayDA]

to change from the FS-607 finisher to the SD-506, I think I have to go from internal fiery to the Creo. What price difference should I expect for those change, roughly?

I would say that's a fairly significant expense....around 8 to 10K, but trust me...you don't want the internal Fiery anyway.

 

[UberTech]

to change from the FS-607 finisher to the SD-506, I think I have to go from internal fiery to the Creo. What price difference should I expect for those change, roughly?

You can't run any finisher other than the FS-607 with the internal fiery I'm afraid. Can't say I have seen the curl on paper change at the exit depending on weather, that would be a feature of the X700. In saying that the C6501 bulk trays have dehumidifiers built in, something the big X won't give you. You don't have to program paper stocks to persuade the machine to print properly, and if you did you could change them on the fly and demand should you make a mistake. If you want a replaceable fuser you should get an office machine most of them are like that.

You would want multiple fusers for the x700, sites I have seen have upwards of 4. Get's quite confusing and I have seen the odd heated argument about which fuser does what, hilarious.

 

[geoman]

Uber, can you elaborate on the de-hudifiers in the 6501? How do they work? What do they do exactly to de-humidify the paper, is it adjustable for different paper types?