From Xerox 700 (mis-sell) to Xerox 5000AP or Canon 6000VP?

P4T

Member
Hi, i've read many posts on this forum and all seem very honest and from people who know what they are talking about with out trying to sell you something!

Therefore I'm looking for a little advice on where to take my digital print business.

We currently have a Xerox 700, which was very much mis-sold to us in Nov. We were looking for an upgrade from the Xerox 5252 and were sold into the idea of the Xerox 700, but it does not suit our business model at all.

We are now in the situation of swapping out the 700 and replacing it with either the Xerox 5000AP or the Canon 6000VP, they seem very similar machines other than the cost. Xerox is more expensive than Canon in both clicks and rental.

Can you advise which you would choose to grow your business?

Thank you in advance.
 
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Hello,

What are your monthly volumes on the system? What are your primary applications? We are a Canon dealer and although I dont know much about the Xerox 5000 other than what I have read I might be able to answer some important questions on the canon for you?
 
Thank you both for your replies.

We are currently doing 60k per 1/4 but are looking to grow this volume considerably in the coming year or so. Just to mention we also have a Xerox 4112 mono machine but we are happy with this and luckily is on a different contract so this is not effected.

We are a division of a design agency so quality is key. But price also an issue and in the current climate has become more of a factor to our clients.

AutumnSeasons - I have been to see both the 5000 and the 6000, am I correct in thnking the 6000 needs a lot of 'babysitting'?
 

We currently have a Xerox 700, which was very much mis-sold to us in Nov. We were looking for an upgrade from the Xerox 5252 and were sold into the idea of the Xerox 700, but it does not suit our business model at all.

I've a DC2060, similar to the 5252 I suppose, and have been looking at the 700 as a possibility for future upgrade. So I'm just curious why the 700 isn't good for you.?
 
Hi GusG,

The 700 is supposed to have very good registration and back-up, ours does not. Xerox have admitted fault on this. We have had some occasions where it has been out by 7mm. We have had to make ALOT of profiles to fix the skewing and back-up and these are used on every job printed and is checked throughout a run.

The colour variation is far greater than we expected and were told (the machine has a DELTA E of 7, which we were not told and is not in any literture). The colour can change considerably over a small print run. For an example of how bad things have got with our machine; it has just taken a day and a half to run a job of 3000 A3 posters on 280gsm Gloss single sided, partly due to colour variation and having to calibrate after every 100, and partly due to the immense amount of paper jams. This job should have taken 3-4 hours maximum.

Certain trays cannot run low stocks, although apparently are compatiable, and coated stocks get jammed or take a few sheets through at a time very easily.

For 6 months we were getting 'stripes' over our sheets, although all the engineers said they could not see it, managed to fix the problem, which I personally found odd. I beleive the issue was being researched in the US and the faulty part was re-made.

We also have had some Fiery issue but this does not relate to the 700, i suppose.

We used to have a 5252 and also believed the 700 was an upgrade, however now I would not consider the 700 as an upgrade as it is actually light production (not very good) machine.

I hope this helps. (Sorry to sound so grumpy!)
 
Thanks P4T, guess I'll hang on to my 2060 for a while yet. I've a little DC12 that I've just started running as a backup and it sounds like that is better on colour and jams then what you are describing with your 700.
I am also running KM bizhubs so believe me I know the pain of a job taking days that should take hours due to jams.
 
I was pretty much sold on the Xerox 700 even for more money than the Konica 6501. Now reading your posts not so sure especially if both machines have jamming issues. We do a lot of picture postcards 4up not a huge volume 20,000 clicks per month max right now, bigger runs go on the heidelberg. We are replacing a Canon 4000. Thanks for any input.
 
Just tell Xerox you want to use the Total Satisfaction Guarantee and get another 700 in to see if it solves the issues. You have a CED and the Xerox is OBLIGATED to MAKE the machine perform to the CED or get a like for like device in there at THEIR expense.

Don't just assume that a different device/manufacture will solve a problem, it could be that you have a bad 700.
 
Thanks Craig. We have discussed the fact it may just be a faulty machine but Xerox have said that our issues are simply the limitations with the machine. I know there are people out there with a 700 who are happy so it may just be our standards.

With regard to the CED, we did not sign one, nor did we see one before getting the machine. I was actually unaware such a thing existed until an engineer (in a heated debate) told me that we signed up to the issues and limitations when signing the CED. This is where the 5000 comes into play - this is the 'replacement' machine, however they are currently proposing we pay more!
 
Have you seen the CED? If so is it performing up to the specifications in the CED? In other words if the CED stated front to back registration to be 2mm and you are getting as much as 7mm then you have a legitimate complaint and they are REQUIRED to fix it. I don't think I would be too quick to get a 5000AP and pay more, maybe an even swap.
 
AutumnSeasons - I have been to see both the 5000 and the 6000, am I correct in thnking the 6000 needs a lot of 'babysitting'?

I was wondering what makes you think the 6000 needs a lot of babysitting...have you heard or seen things? Just curious as I am also considering the 6000. I am not considering the Xerox 5000 due to the glossiness of the fuser oil.
 
Babysitting 6000 Xerox

Babysitting 6000 Xerox

Hello,

This wasnt my question/ coment on the babysitting but a question that was asked to me... Here is the response that I gave which came from one of our Production Printing Specialists as well as Tech's. I hope this helps everyone with his perspective on things to the 700 to the replacement to some thoughts:

They are correct the Xerox 6000 does require some babysitting and not to mention that Xerox depends on their customers to do a portion of the machines service with their “Consumer Replaceable Parts”. That being said the 6000VP is far superior to the 5000AP. The AP Xerox models were their answer to the productivity of the Canon VP series, however they did not go back to the drawing board and reengineer, they simply increased the fuser temperature. In essence they are COOKING the prints in order to keep the machine from slowing down for heavy stock. This creates integrity issues with the paper like increased shrinkage and registration issues due to shrinkage, curling and so forth. For the Green conscious company, there is also a massive amount of power required to keep that fuser at such a high temperature throughout a long print run.

The 6000VP was engineered with technology from today and not ten years ago. The dual fusing technology ensures that we can stick toner to paper at lower temperatures without sacrificing the integrity of the media. It also means we can achieve gloss optimization (similar to a press), glossy stocks retain a glossy finish, matte stocks retain a matte finish. You can only get a glossy finish on the Xerox machines because they put fuser oil on the prints (10 year old technology). This can cause issues with UV coating or spot varnishing, both of which are completely acceptable on 6000VP prints.

Quality on the 6000VP is by far the best out there, True 1200x1200 dpi, registration of .5mm, and a huge array of acceptable paper stocks, no loss of productivity on heavy paper weights without FRYING the prints and auto duplexing even on the heaviest stocks. Also when fully stocked with supplies the Canon 6000VP can run for up to two hours without user intervention.

If they had a Xerox 700 and were unhappy that is not surprising. That machine is a office copier with higher paper capacity and fancy finishers. The engine is exactly the same at their upper end office machines.



Thank You,

Autumn
 
Hi GusG,

The 700 is supposed to have very good registration and back-up, ours does not. Xerox have admitted fault on this. We have had some occasions where it has been out by 7mm. We have had to make ALOT of profiles to fix the skewing and back-up and these are used on every job printed and is checked throughout a run.

The colour variation is far greater than we expected and were told (the machine has a DELTA E of 7, which we were not told and is not in any literture). The colour can change considerably over a small print run. For an example of how bad things have got with our machine; it has just taken a day and a half to run a job of 3000 A3 posters on 280gsm Gloss single sided, partly due to colour variation and having to calibrate after every 100, and partly due to the immense amount of paper jams. This job should have taken 3-4 hours maximum.

Certain trays cannot run low stocks, although apparently are compatiable, and coated stocks get jammed or take a few sheets through at a time very easily.

For 6 months we were getting 'stripes' over our sheets, although all the engineers said they could not see it, managed to fix the problem, which I personally found odd. I beleive the issue was being researched in the US and the faulty part was re-made.

We also have had some Fiery issue but this does not relate to the 700, i suppose.

We used to have a 5252 and also believed the 700 was an upgrade, however now I would not consider the 700 as an upgrade as it is actually light production (not very good) machine.

I hope this helps. (Sorry to sound so grumpy!)

There is no way Xerox said 7mm was with in specs! The Front to back is 1mm in the CED. Either you are mistaken (1), Lied to by someone at Xerox (2), or you are a plant and are making this up (3).
Why have you not used the TSG or gotten another service rep??????
Am I really supposed to believe you have trouble for a year and you have not replaced your machine.
This smells way too fishy.
 
The AP Xerox models were their answer to the productivity of the Canon VP series, however they did not go back to the drawing board and reengineer, they simply increased the fuser temperature. In essence they are COOKING the prints in order to keep the machine from slowing down for heavy stock. This creates integrity issues with the paper like increased shrinkage and registration issues due to shrinkage, curling and so forth. For the Green conscious company, there is also a massive amount of power required to keep that fuser at such a high temperature throughout a long print run.

You really need to get your facts strait, they did not simply raise the fuser temperature, it is a completely different fuser. The 8000 fuser will NOT work in an 8000AP, if I recall, I remember one of our tech's conversations with engineering in Rochester NY, the fuser runs cooler in All Weights Mode than in Single Weights Mode. (I will stand corrected if wrong, going off memory from a call last year) That's why it takes longer to cycle when going from 300gsm to 105gsm in All Weights Mode vs Single Weights Mode.
 
Hello,

This wasnt my question/ coment on the babysitting but a question that was asked to me... Here is the response that I gave which came from one of our Production Printing Specialists as well as Tech's. I hope this helps everyone with his perspective on things to the 700 to the replacement to some thoughts:

They are correct the Xerox 6000 does require some babysitting and not to mention that Xerox depends on their customers to do a portion of the machines service with their “Consumer Replaceable Parts”. That being said the 6000VP is far superior to the 5000AP. The AP Xerox models were their answer to the productivity of the Canon VP series, however they did not go back to the drawing board and reengineer, they simply increased the fuser temperature. In essence they are COOKING the prints in order to keep the machine from slowing down for heavy stock. This creates integrity issues with the paper like increased shrinkage and registration issues due to shrinkage, curling and so forth. For the Green conscious company, there is also a massive amount of power required to keep that fuser at such a high temperature throughout a long print run.

The 6000VP was engineered with technology from today and not ten years ago. The dual fusing technology ensures that we can stick toner to paper at lower temperatures without sacrificing the integrity of the media. It also means we can achieve gloss optimization (similar to a press), glossy stocks retain a glossy finish, matte stocks retain a matte finish. You can only get a glossy finish on the Xerox machines because they put fuser oil on the prints (10 year old technology). This can cause issues with UV coating or spot varnishing, both of which are completely acceptable on 6000VP prints.

Quality on the 6000VP is by far the best out there, True 1200x1200 dpi, registration of .5mm, and a huge array of acceptable paper stocks, no loss of productivity on heavy paper weights without FRYING the prints and auto duplexing even on the heaviest stocks. Also when fully stocked with supplies the Canon 6000VP can run for up to two hours without user intervention.

If they had a Xerox 700 and were unhappy that is not surprising. That machine is a office copier with higher paper capacity and fancy finishers. The engine is exactly the same at their upper end office machines.



Thank You,

Autumn

BLOW THE HORN. Canon Dealer here. I will answer this BS about the 700 later. Office product nothing!
 
There is no way Xerox said 7mm was with in specs! The Front to back is 1mm in the CED. Either you are mistaken (1), Lied to by someone at Xerox (2), or you are a plant and are making this up (3).
Why have you not used the TSG or gotten another service rep??????
Am I really supposed to believe you have trouble for a year and you have not replaced your machine.
This smells way too fishy.

I wish I could say I’m mistaken or a plant but I can definitely confirm I am not. I am considering both the Xerox 5000AP and Canon 6000VP, if I were a plant surely I would not need to ask advice on which machine to consider!

We have been making complaints about these issues since Feb (we got the machine in Nov). Unfortunately we are not in the position to stop production because of errors that cannot be resolved therefore have had to work around this issues until a resolution has been made hence the replacement suggestion!
 
I was wondering what makes you think the 6000 needs a lot of babysitting...have you heard or seen things? Just curious as I am also considering the 6000. I am not considering the Xerox 5000 due to the glossiness of the fuser oil.

I have been to see a Canon and a Xerox machine in their working environments and the system operator of the Canon actually stated 'it needs a fair bit of babysitting'...
 
The equivilent machine to X700 is a c6501 have you considerd KM at all? You might actually want to talk to the Oce about there version. From what I hear they are a bit more on to it than KM in the UK.
 
I have the same issue with my 700. its alot faster then my 252 so we run most of our jobs there and when a job need to line up really well i run it on the 252. The tech probably comes in twice a week to adjust as much skew as possible on the machine and can never get it right. Works for about a couple of days and it will be off again. I get about 3mm to 4mm off. sometimes more! It is suppose to register better than the 252 but don't seem like it is.
 
The fact is the Xerox 700 registration spec is 1mm front to back !

If your machine is not performing like that, Xerox needs to fix that problem.

Everytime I have a customer saying that registration is off, I try to visit the customer personally. 99% of the time, they have never done any kind of registration, paper alignment, skewing or any other adjustment. Either they don't know about it or they just don't want to do it.

All those tools are available for you to use, at the UI of the X700, and at the UI of the RIP.

You should create paper profiles with specific alignment/skewing settings if needed.

If I run Xerox 80lb Cover, the results will be different if I run Stora Enso 80lb Cover. Paper makes a lot difference.
 

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