Harmony Calibration question

yespress

Well-known member
I am trying to create a calibration curve for our 40" press. I had the pressman print the P2P25 target. I then brought that data into IDEAlink 1.1, which gave me Output Curve Set. My question is where do those numbers go? Would that be the Target curve or the Current curve. I feel stupid for asking this, but I have very little experience creating calibration curves.
 
I am trying to create a calibration curve for our 40" press. I had the pressman print the P2P25 target. I then brought that data into IDEAlink 1.1, which gave me Output Curve Set. My question is where do those numbers go? Would that be the Target curve or the Current curve. I feel stupid for asking this, but I have very little experience creating calibration curves.

In Harmony the "Target" curve is the tone response on press that you want to achieve. The "Current" curve is the tonal response on press that you actually got - typically from an uncalibrated plate (i.e. no curve applied). Therefore, the "Current" curve is likely the tonal response you got when you printed the P2P25 file.
Harmony then derives a "Calibration" curve from the target curve and current curve that you specify. The calibration curve represents the adjustment needed to the tone specified in the digital file so that your target is achieved on press.

(with apologies) gordon p
 
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Additional curve type available in Harmony

Additional curve type available in Harmony

To add a bit to the previous post, there is an additional curve type available to you in Harmony.

As noted before, when you enter your target curve and your original curve, Harmony will derive the adjustment curve to apply. It applies those values to the incoming values with the expectation of hitting the target curve in the print result.

It's possible your software may tell you right up front what adjustments you should make, based on the measured values versus the "standard" values for that target. In that case, you want to input into Harmony the data provided by your software. Harmony allows you to create such an adjustment curve that is NOT derived from an original and a target.
 
First of all, thanks for the replies. OK, so I put the values from the P2P25 target from the press sheet into the "Current Curve". Are there standard values for Gracol, SWOP, etc... curves that needs to got into the "Target Curve" then?
 
I'm curious to this as well.

Could you:
Use the "Measured" values from the Curve software as your "Current" curve in Harmony
and then
Use the "Wanted" values from the Curve software as your "Target" curve in Harmony

Would this work??
 
I guess my question is, what are the wanted values. For instance, is there a Garcol measurement set that I need to import into the Curve software to generate a Gracol Target curve?
 
Gordo had it correctly. The data you got from Curvelink is what you want to enter as your target. They become the wanted values. If you've used the software correctly the Curvelink curve is what you need to reproduce for your press to hit G7. It's important that your test sheet was run to ISO standard densities though.
 
In Harmony the "Target" curve is the tone response on press that you want to achieve. The "Current" curve is the tonal response on press that you actually got - typically from an uncalibrated plate (i.e. no curve applied). Therefore, the "Current" curve is likely the tonal response you got when you printed the P2P25 file.
Harmony then derives a "Calibration" curve from the target curve and current curve that you specify. The calibration curve represents the adjustment needed to the tone specified in the digital file so that your target is achieved on press.

Since the Curve software is giving you already corrected or "on-plate" values, you should plug the Curve numbers in as "Target" and leave "Current" linear.

Terry
 
Hi Gordo, so would you agree with terrywyse? Like I said, I am new to this, but I always thought that you'd want to make up for the dot gain on press by reducing the dot size. If I do what terrywise is suggesting, won't my dot sizes increase? Attached is the output curve I printed out from the Curve software.
 

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Hi Gordo, so would you agree with terrywyse? Like I said, I am new to this, but I always thought that you'd want to make up for the dot gain on press by reducing the dot size. If I do what terrywise is suggesting, won't my dot sizes increase? Attached is the output curve I printed out from the Curve software.

If I understand correctly what Terrywyse wrote, the Curve software - not Harmony - is providing the plate curve values. I might be wrong, however I don't think that what he suggests would work. Harmony does not care what dots are on the plate, nor whether the plate is linear or not (uncalibrated plates are preferred).
Harmony simply looks at what was requested in the PostScript/native application file and what was delivered in the press work (current curve). The dots on the plate are not relevant. They are not considered.
From those two pieces of information - what you asked for in the file and what you got on the press sheet - Harmony then creates a look up table to remap requested tones to the tones that will give you the result you wanted.

Put another way. For example.

• In my file a 50% tone is specified. When I printed that requested 50% I got 80% (80% is a point on the "current" curve) on the press sheet.

• However what I want is that when I specify 50% in my file I expect to get 68% (68% is a point on the "target" curve) on the press sheet. Assuming that 18% is the industry standard dot gain.

• Harmony then looks at which requested tone in the file resulted in a 68% tone in the press work.

• Perhaps a 40% tone in the file ended up as 68% in the presswork.

• Harmony then builds a look up table that will remap any file request for 50% to a request for 40%.
The result is that when I specify a 50% tone in my file I get the 68% target tone in my presswork.

This blog post explains it more deeply and includes illustrations:
Quality In Print: dot gain

So, what you/Harmony need is:
1) a target curve - the tone response you want to achieve in your press work.
2) a current curve - the tone response that you are getting when you simply output an uncalibrated plate and run it on press.

Harmony will the use 1 and 2 to build the lookup table so that you get the tone response that you want in your presswork.

Make sense?

(with apologies) best, gordon p

BTW Harmony is not based on the idea of "making up for dot gain" It is based on the idea that you have a target tone response that you wish to emulate that is different from your current tone response. There could be dot gain, or dot loss involved. It doesn't matter because it doesn't matter to the user what dot gain or loss they have in their system. What matters is that they get what they want according to what they asked for. So, you could have different screens, e.g. 20 micron FM and 100 lpi AM, which would have different dot gains but still give the same final tones on press. I.e. if I ask for 50% I would get 68% on the press sheet despite the dot gains being different.
 
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Duh me. Just thought of something - and maybe this is what Terry meant (and I misunderstood).

Rather than input press data in to Harmony - maybe input the Curve software "on-plate" values as the "target curve" and input the uncalibrated plate curve data as your "current curve" (i.e. what tones do you get on your plate without any calibration). Harmony might then build an appropriate curve - so that might work.

(with apologies) Gordon p
 
Is there a dot gain curve for a press running to GRACoL 7 on #1 coated paper that someone could provide/post to this thread?

J
 
Hi guys,
Just wanted to throw a monkey wrench in the discussion. If you are a Prinergy 5.1 user, you have ColorFlow Workflow Edition by default. With this application, you can create grey balanced curves aligned to a wide variety of specifications and tonal match curves to ISO.

Furthermore, all of the "target" data is built-in to the application, so only the current press response needs to be obtained.

One point of clarification on the requested "GRACoL 7 target tonal response"... GRACoL data is published in terms of colorimetric aimpoints, not tonal aimpoints. It is a specification that aligns the color of a grey to the neutral grey color in the published GRACoL data set. Thus, a GRACoL 7 target tonal response does not exist. With ColorFlow, you can measure the uncalibrated press response as you would when you generate a current curve, the only difference is that you collect color data by reading a larger patchset on press. With this data, ColorFlow can create a set of calibration curves to align the color response of your press to the expected color described by the GRACoL specification.

hope this helps,
dave
 
[snip]
One point of clarification on the requested "GRACoL 7 target tonal response"... GRACoL data is published in terms of colorimetric aimpoints, not tonal aimpoints. It is a specification that aligns the color of a grey to the neutral grey color in the published GRACoL data set. Thus, a GRACoL 7 target tonal response does not exist.[snip]

Thanks for that. However not everyone has the latest and greatest. :-(

Once a press is set up to the GRACoL 7 aimpoints wouldn't that result in a characteristic tone curve, or set of 4 curves? Probably similar to the "old school" standard dot gain curve? That's what I'd like to see.

J
 
Uncalibrated data for the purpose of characterization or calibrated data for the use in verification? Or both?
 
Today we can import P2P data for the purpose of characterizing an uncalibrated press condition to aim at an ISO tonal response. So, these are tonal match curves, not grey balanced curves. Because the P2P contains so few patches, data from the measurement of this chart cannot be used to build a color model that we could use for profile creation or accurate grey balance curve creation. I have, however, logged a Feature Request to allow for the import of the P2P measurement data so that we will eventually be able to create a set of grey balanced curves.

regards,
dave
 

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