Help with digital equipment decision

[panamajack]

I’m about to open a new full-service print shop and I’m at a critical decision point. I have two offers on the table and need some advice. My vision for the business is to open concentrating on traditional printing (forms, letterhead, brochures, biz-cards. Etc). Once I have established a traditional business customer base I plan on moving towards becoming a marketing consultant for small to medium business which will require the capability to provide complex VDP and a consistent high quality color product. My two choices are
1. KM C6501 with internal fiery, 60 month FMV lease and a click charge of .045 color and .01 B&W
2. Xerox 700 with internal fiery, 60 month FMV lease and a click charge of .049 color and .01 B&W
The problem in the lease payment for the Xerox in $400 per month more than the KM. I’m well capitalized so I can afford the extra but I don’t want to throw money away All advice will be greatly appreciated
V/R

 

[Beergod]

I have evaluated both of these engines and although they are priced close together that is all that is fair to compare. The 700 is operator serviceable (which means less down time) and is available with the FreeFlow front end which, in my opinion, is better than the EFI solution (I could write a long page just on this alone).
The KM 6501 is a good machine as well. The feed system is very robust and if you are running a multitude of substrates then its going to do well.
Where these machines dont compare is in print quality, consistency and registration front to back. I have logged a lot of testing on both of these engines and I can tell you with confidence that the 700 is more money because you are truely getting more for your money. If you reprint your work regularly then I would without a doubt go with the 700. On the other hand, if you are just doing "quick-print" work then save your money and go with the 6501.

 

[JJBenderLLC]

You could save a lot more money....

You could save a lot more money....

If I were you I would forget both offers, and instead start looking to lease a Konica 6500. The only difference between the 6501 and the 6500 is the print engine, so basically if you go with the 6500 you are getting the same machine for half the monthly leasing price you would pay for the Xerox 700 or 6501--that’s a savings of 500+ dollars a month, and the 6500 is a fantastic machine.

And here is the real kicker....if in a years time you decide "My business is doing well, I want to upgrade to the KM 6501," the accessories are interchangeable, meaning you would only have to drop about 400 bucks to get the 6501 print engine (the fiery and all the accessories would stay the same).

I hope this advice helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.

JJ Bender
203-336-4034

 

[Craig]

There is a reason KM is cheaper... open it up and try to find the metal parts. It's like where's Waldo.

 

[short_stop4]

Hey Jack, be careful printing letterheads with digital printers using toner. When the company runs the letterhead back through a laserjet printer (which uses tremendous heat), it can reheat the toner that you printed on there and make it run/smear.

Can others confirm this?

 

[JohnT]

Hey Jack, be careful printing letterheads with digital printers using toner. When the company runs the letterhead back through a laserjet printer (which uses tremendous heat), it can reheat the toner that you printed on there and make it run/smear.

Can others confirm this?

We can confirm this. We have an older Doc 12 (soon to be replaced) where this can be an issue. I am told that the newer machines being made have addressed this issue. Before a person runs the whole print job I would have that issue checked out as a precaution...

 

[vwrome]

I would give a look at the Ricoh Pro C550 and 700EX. The are a pretty nice machine.

 

[JJBenderLLC]

Craig, I’m not sure which Konica machine you’re referring to…or if you’re confusing it with Ricoh, but Konica’s are pure steel. The base frame alone is over 740 pounds.

 

[panamajack]

Hey Jack, be careful printing letterheads with digital printers using toner. When the company runs the letterhead back through a laserjet printer (which uses tremendous heat), it can reheat the toner that you printed on there and make it run/smear.

Can others confirm this?

Short Stop

Thanks for the info! I've also heard that letterhead has some problems on digital. Can anyone verify that the Xerox 700 with it's new type of toner may be less prone to letterhead problems? BTW I'll be opening with a 2 color offeset press in addition to which ever digital machine I decide on.

 

[John A]

letterhead on a toner based digital press

letterhead on a toner based digital press

The toner the X700 uses has a lower melt temperature which makes it more of a problem on letterhead that is to be run back through a laser printer.

I'm not sure there are any toner based digital printers that are safe for letterhead applications.

Has anybody found a digital press out there that works for letterhead?

 

[ChuckH]

I would give a look at the Ricoh Pro C550 and 700EX. The are a pretty nice machine.

Look seriously at the C900 - many RICOH locations are seeling demo units to replace with the Scanner/Copier version. C550 and C700's don't have the tightness in F2B registration for most shops. With single click 13x19 capability you need that registration. Color consistency on C550/C700 may be suspect but the C900's productivity is good for mid duty color printer.
Full Disclosure - I'm Ricoh employee

 

[ridety]

xerox 700

xerox 700

Have put 150,000ish clicks on my new Xerox 700 in the past couple of months I've had it. Absolutely love it. First service call was today. Can count the paper jams in that time frame using only fingers- no toes. Color is exceptional. We run about 80% gloss 80# cover. Most of those clicks were on preprinted (offset) shells. (Tech today basically cleaned it up and put new tires in it).

If I had any complaint at all, it would be that I wish there were a single button to push to see color/black clicks. (takes two or three clicks through menu).

But that's bout it. Other than that, it's a sweet machine. (pay bout 1100/month on 5 year $1 buyout lease) ($.049/color) ($.01/black/white); (have integrated fiery, one drawer hi-cap, and light production finisher)

 

[panamajack]

Have put 150,000ish clicks on my new Xerox 700 in the past couple of months I've had it. Absolutely love it. First service call was today. Can count the paper jams in that time frame using only fingers- no toes. Color is exceptional. We run about 80% gloss 80# cover. Most of those clicks were on preprinted (offset) shells. (Tech today basically cleaned it up and put new tires in it).

If I had any complaint at all, it would be that I wish there were a single button to push to see color/black clicks. (takes two or three clicks through menu).

But that's bout it. Other than that, it's a sweet machine. (pay bout 1100/month on 5 year $1 buyout lease) ($.049/color) ($.01/black/white); (have integrated fiery, one drawer hi-cap, and light production finisher)

That’s great news. There’s been some message traffic discussing whether or not the 700 can produce photo quality. With your first hand experience with the 700 I would enjoy hearing your opinion.

 

[ridety]

quality of print

quality of print

I've had no issues at all with quality of print... but to be fair, my customer base is mom and pops who aren't all that sensitive in terms of color and photo quality.

Plus, I've been running a couple of canon 3220's (office machines) for the last several years... so the 700 is very much ahead of those...

In short, we love the quality of the output!

 

[Craig]

ridety,
I hope you kept at least 1 of those 3220's! If they are like my 3200 they just keep running and running no matter what you shove through them. The print quality is a few years behind but they print on anything.

 

[whitecollarskater]

Photos and color quality

Photos and color quality

This was a big reason we went with the 700. The picture quality and color control we get from the 700 is nothing like anything we ever had on a demo. We had every vendor print some of our company files and bring them to us. The BLACKS on the Xerox were hands down the best we had seen. Without looking through a loop you could not tell where there were any lines in a sunset photo where on others you could see where they changed colors. As for ease of use and paper jams....ZERO complaints from our copy center employees. They love the fact they can change the drum on their own without any down time. That is something that Konica or Ricoh could not promise. Again, the Xerox costs us more per month but we don't have to worry about being down for four hours waiting for the Konica or Ricoh tech to show up to replace a drum. The difference from the 6501 and the 700 that we ended up getting was about $550.00 more per month. We make that cost up in less downtime and more productivity. We can now duplex 220 in the drawers and not have to flip it like we did on our old Konica 6500's.

 

[UberTech]

This was a big reason we went with the 700. The picture quality and color control we get from the 700 is nothing like anything we ever had on a demo. We had every vendor print some of our company files and bring them to us. The BLACKS on the Xerox were hands down the best we had seen. Without looking through a loop you could not tell where there were any lines in a sunset photo where on others you could see where they changed colors. As for ease of use and paper jams....ZERO complaints from our copy center employees. They love the fact they can change the drum on their own without any down time. That is something that Konica or Ricoh could not promise. Again, the Xerox costs us more per month but we don't have to worry about being down for four hours waiting for the Konica or Ricoh tech to show up to replace a drum. The difference from the 6501 and the 700 that we ended up getting was about $550.00 more per month. We make that cost up in less downtime and more productivity. We can now duplex 220 in the drawers and not have to flip it like we did on our old Konica 6500's.

Why would you need to work and turn 220gsm?

 

[Joe Struntz]

whitecollarskater: What rip are you running? Photo quality on the Xerox 700 is a main selling point for our decision vs the Konica 6501. Thanks

 

[whitecollarskater]

what we print...

what we print...

We print a lot of two sided marketing materials for insurance companies that are needed to be printed on 10 point 80lb cover and when we did the tests on the KM and the Xerox, the Xerox ran it through the drawers better than anything we saw. We liked the color quality on the KM, but the Xerox was a bit better on some of our color mathcing and fill. We have the external Fiery with the graphic arts package.

 

[UberTech]

We print a lot of two sided marketing materials for insurance companies that are needed to be printed on 10 point 80lb cover and when we did the tests on the KM and the Xerox, the Xerox ran it through the drawers better than anything we saw. We liked the color quality on the KM, but the Xerox was a bit better on some of our color mathcing and fill. We have the external Fiery with the graphic arts package.

Why would you need to work and turn 220gsm?