Illustrator AI file type issues when placed to Indesign

[MC_JerryD]

Have not seen this issue since placing PDFs into Quark 4. **Bad flashback**.

Client sent an Illustrator PDF file of a business card front and back on an 8.5 x 11 document. Edited the Illustrator PDF, saved as an AI file and placed into an InDesign document. The type on the AI file previewed with dots and symbols. (see attachment). Illustrator and InDesign file were CS3.

A day later I tried to duplicate this issue on the same computer with the same files and could not do it. File turned out fine. Not complaining, but would have liked to pinpoint the issue. I also found out from another operator on a different computer he had the same issue with CS5.

Has anyone else seen this issue?

MC_JerryD

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Yes it is a font issue, it is dependant on versions of software, and flavour of PDF. I have had it happen in print but it was agaes ago. (CS4 had an initial font bug when exporting to PDF other than PDFx4) Have not seen it with current versions.

 

[DavidMa]

agree, font issue. I've seen this exact problem, it has something to do with the differance between CS3 and CS4 text engines.

 

[bprint_tampabay]

Agreed, font issue.

Just curious though... what platform and what font(s)??

 

[KimSaks]

I suspect that your client may be using an old Illustrator or PDF format.
What do you see if you open the file in Acrobat Pro? (8 or 9 would be best)
If it views correctly and your edits cannot be made in Acrobat Pro, try just re-saving the pdf (naturally with all customary settings selected including fonts) out of Acrobat and open in Illustrator.
This use to be a work around that fixed a lot of PDF issues.

 

[Polar Designer]

It may not always be space-efficient...however, fonts should ALWAYS, ALWAYS be outlined before the file is sent to another computer.

As a designer I always save one working copy version (without outlined fonts) for myself, so I can easily make edits...

Then ALWAYS outline fonts and save that as a sending copy to any other platform.

There are millions of ways fonts can default, and not all of them will immediately seem applicable or explicable and sometimes it can be REALLY subtle, such as a defaulted font on a logo, or a completely dropped font and no one would know text should have been there.

I can't stress enough, the solution here is for your client: always, always outline.

You're lucky if you can solve it third party. There will be many situations where you can't, and we all know how tricky it can be to track down a client or correct a mistake after they may have left for the day.

 

[Sev]

I got a reprint on a job today, but the client wanted some text changes. Of course the client insisted that we (the printer) make the text changes. Of course, the fonts were outlined. And our sales were not about to try to get the original files for the job. So, because the fonts were outlined, I had to hack the job to make the text edits, which added alot of extra time to the job. So, should fonts always be outlined?

-Sev

 

[dabob]

outlines or not . . .???

outlines or not . . .???

ditto to sev just had the same thing happen . .. one of my designers sends me the files with an outlined layer and an editable text layer which is turned off unless editing is required . .. the best of both worlds . . .

 

[Polar Designer]

I got a reprint on a job today, but the client wanted some text changes. Of course the client insisted that we (the printer) make the text changes. Of course, the fonts were outlined. And our sales were not about to try to get the original files for the job. So, because the fonts were outlined, I had to hack the job to make the text edits, which added alot of extra time to the job. So, should fonts always be outlined?

-Sev

I worked for newspapers and with prepress long enough to know what a pain it can be when we have to make something work on a daily basis to run across that one outlined ad. I also know I very rarely had to correct those ads compared to the others.

I know that the other ads I had to correct happened for two reasons:

• Our clients weren't held responsible for their camera-ready materials - i.e. a vast majority of the corrections to outside ads were font related. And those are just the ones we CAUGHT. This isn't considering full page ads that were supposed to have some sort of font background that didn't run properly.
  
• We had very tight deadlines and clients we couldn't always get a hold of and so we erred on the side of correcting/making small revisions so the ad would still run and thus we would still get the sale.

However, I also know that it breeds three problems to not require it of camera-ready material(among many other smaller problems):

• It increases inaccuracy and inability to say who is responsible for mistakes related to revised ads. (thus losing sale money)
  
• Not setting a standard for outlines leaves the client uninformed of unexpected printer/font errors that no one knew about if the default issues are subtle or not caught. (losing client respect for your ability to take care of their needs professionally)
  
• And while making the text edits for them may make some clients happy immediately, it increases the risk of something going wrong that only the client/original designer would know about to catch. (thus losing more sale money, and client approval down the road)

So yes. It takes very little time for the original artist to edit materials if they are responsible and present for their ad. I.e. they get it to you with time to spare/are around for when you call with questions etc.

If you are that artist - have at. If not, the designer responsible for their camera-ready ad should be the only one accountable for text revisions.

The item should either run as it was approved, or be pulled (depending on situation) if you can't get a hold of the person responsible for their camera-ready materials.

I don't say that lightly. I know it's a pita on BOTH ends, but rarely EVER do I have problems I can't account for as a result. I know the immediate dollar, or the concern for the immediate client relationship seems monumental. But I think we are here to build long-term, trustworthy, professional and reliable support for our clients. That means US taking a punch for them sometimes, and also being clear about the difference between using camera-ready services or in-house services.

If, after that point, they want you to take the extra time to work around outlines - (because that still can happen), then at least you can better inform them that you had to change the font to something similar. Which is a small price to pay compared to the other issues that could have happened between you-the ad-and the client before that point.

Outlining fonts reduces more problems than it has ever caused.

Sorry if that seems ranty. I've worked on both ends, so I've had a lot of time to consider it. ;}

 

[Polar Designer]

ditto to sev just had the same thing happen . .. one of my designers sends me the files with an outlined layer and an editable text layer which is turned off unless editing is required . .. the best of both worlds . . .

This is a brilliant idea. ;} It still doesn't account for some of the font/printer issues I've seen, but it is the most comprehensive solution I've heard of.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

There are different ways of verifying files than outlining fonts. I do not think that you should outline fonts. Outline fonts are not as clean as real fonts, when in small font sizes. But it would be an idea to have verified PDF files. Use GWG preflight profiles and specifications for adds and you should be fine.

 

[Polar Designer]

Fair enough. There are certainly situations with multiple page printing where that would be the last thing you'd want to consider.

I've had book-style printing jobs where symbols needed weren't supported by what we had available to our printers/systems and kept printing wrong. Outlining fixes those issues simply. However, in general for something that big I'd probably vote against it for sure. Often times embedding is enough.

With smaller stuff, I hold a different opinion, as the 'why not?' outweighs the 'why?' when dealing with a multitude of clients and printers in my experience. :} But it's fine to disagree, and I certainly conceed to your points.

 

[CHM]

Have not seen this issue since placing PDFs into Quark 4. **Bad flashback**.

Client sent an Illustrator PDF file of a business card front and back on an 8.5 x 11 document. Edited the Illustrator PDF, saved as an AI file and placed into an InDesign document. The type on the AI file previewed with dots and symbols. (see attachment). Illustrator and InDesign file were CS3.


MC_JerryD

Little question about this, did you resieve a pdf with Illustrator copatibilty, or a plain pdf out of illustrator.
If it is the last one, it is a verry bad idea to edit a plain pdf in Illustrator. Illustrator is no pdf editor.

Now abou your problem. Ye sits a font problem and it happend when you resaved the file. Moste of the time the reason is font Cashes. You can get this by changing alot of fonts (activating and desacctivating fonts). Cleaning font cashes frome time to time can help, also closing down Adobe software while changing fonts alot can help to..

And like Lukas Engqvist said there are ways to check this, also if you open the pdf in Acrobat it wil say if a font is not good embeded in the pdf.
I also have to agree with Lukas Engqvist, dont vectorise fonts.

 

[Polar Designer]

Good explanation of another possible issue.

Out of curiosity (because I might learn from it), and not to digress the conversation - but from the print end, why would you suggest not vectorizing fonts?

I've seen these explanations:

To give an option to edit incoming print materials
Small fonts don't remain as clean
Because there are other methods of checking font issues that should be checked/considered when working with a file - so it shouldn't be necessary.

In my experience: the first should be up to the creator, the second I concur with if you're using large blocks of small text/type, and the third does not always reliably solve the issue for numerous reasons...thus leaving more room for errors that wouldn't be caught/corrected/fixable on the print end.

I'm curious if there are any other reasons or issues I wouldn't know of on the Design and pagination end. ;}

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

It is possible to select "text objects" to make sure that they are 100% k with overprint rather than rich black. If you make it into outlines (text is also vector objects btw) there is no way to trigger seperate trapping or overprinting.
Also preflights include checking for text below certain point size (eg 6pt and 8pt for negative or multiple inks.)
black text below 12 points to be forced overprint.
large black text (above 24 or 36) force knockout.

In short you can colectively set parameters accorting to if they are text, and/or point size.
The other parameters you can set for all object properties.

This may not be an issue in your workflow. Your responsibility – you decide!

 

[Polar Designer]

Usually when I convert to outlines, I keep all outlined text as a separate object that is grouped. So seperate trapping/overprinting hasn't or shouldn't have been an issue, yea?

Yep, I know. Although text is a little more complex than just a traditional vector.

I see what you mean. So, if your text is an object, as opposed too text, it limits your ability to use the distinction for printing parameters that you guys may want to check on.

Nah, frankly, I never expect printers to make changes, if a typo runs, it's my own fault, as I usually proof everything a few times, and I'm also always available to revise anything the printers need. I am not one of those clients who is MIA when the deadline hits. So usually they just call me to check on things if they're concerned about an error they caught.

Thanks for the info Lukas! :}

 

[MC_JerryD]

Agreed, font issue.

Just curious though... what platform and what font(s)??

Platform: Mac OS 10.4.11 Creative Suites 3
Font: Mostra One Regular

 

[MC_JerryD]

I suspect that your client may be using an old Illustrator or PDF format.
What do you see if you open the file in Acrobat Pro? (8 or 9 would be best)
If it views correctly and your edits cannot be made in Acrobat Pro, try just re-saving the pdf (naturally with all customary settings selected including fonts) out of Acrobat and open in Illustrator.
This use to be a work around that fixed a lot of PDF issues.

The original PDF is an Illustrator file saved as an Illustrator PDF. The original file was fine. When an operator loaded the fonts and make an edit is when he got the dots and symbols previewing when placing the newly saved AI file into InDesign.

I am going with a font issue on this. Just have not seen it in a while. Went though all our production Macs and did a major font cleaning. Amazing the fonts you find in the user library.

Thanks for your help everyone.
MC_JerryD

 

[colinobrien]

You can outline your PDF with the likes of pitstop and then take the file into Illustrator.
Dont worry about the "small text does not look sharp" stories. If the job is being output on a decent rip and setter there will be no difference.

I insist on my customers providing me with an outlined layer and a live one, it works well. If you get stuck with an outlined job that needs text amends and you have no idea what font it used. Look for whatthefont on the web, it can save you a bit of time.