Kerning and Outlining fonts

[JohnS]

Some of my clients insist that I outline fonts.
If I do so it seems I lose my kerning. Using PageMaker and InDesign on Win. platform.

Why should I even bother?
Years ago I used to kern everything, if needed.
Today it seems that "printing companys" want outlined type.
Does anybody really see the kerning I've done and care about it?
I certainly see the difference. I really don't like doing "just good enough" work; but may be that's todays way of doing business.

Buy the way, with so little work I do in actual design, I can really aford to take the time to do what I think is "right". Looks better to me.

May be I'm just too old, 70 years, to do this crap anymore.

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

The only excuse for "outlining text" in lieu of keeping text "live" with use of fonts is for certain graphics effects that cannot otherwise be achieved. Such effects may be used to create logos, for example. But "outlining text" certainly has bad side effects such as:

(1) Inability to further edit the underlying text.

(2) Inability to search text or touch-up same in the resultant PDF file.

(3) Bloated resultant PDF (or PostScript) files.

(4) Slow rendering of resultant PDF files.

(5) Degraded text quality (especially at text point sizes and at resolutions of 1200 dpi and lower) for print and especially for PDF viewing.

Outlining text is strongly discouraged as a production technique by Adobe.

Some "clients" and "printers" insist on "text outlining" due to (1) unwillingness to license fonts that you may be using or fonts that are legally embeddable in PDF, EPS, and PostScript files, (2) use of poor quality fonts that don't render properly under some conditions with some RIPs, (3) use of crufty workflows that cannot properly render even properly constructed fonts, and/or (4) ignorance.

Furthermore, note that "outlining text" to get around font embedding licensing restrictions in many cases does not legally get around such restrictions even if operationally it does! You are still violating the fonts' licenses.

Personally, I refuse to deal with printers that have such stupid production requirements or that internally employ such techniques!

- Dov

 

[LoneGoose]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Dov's response is excellent, as always. I'd only like to add that converting to paths can also sometimes cause the type to print slightly bold.

There doesn't seem to be any rational excuse to have to outline type unless you're going to be manipulating it in some way, like in a logo.

 

[Treedodger]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

You might try this in ID. Select your type with the cursor and create outlines. Observe results. Then try just selecting the box containing the type and create outlines. Notice any difference? We always just select the box before outlining.

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

By the way, the reason why the type seems to be bolder is that the type scaling is done geometrically as opposed to using the intelligent scaling built into the font - i.e., the hinting feature of fonts!

- Dov

 

[LoweringTheBar]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

"Dear God in heaven, please don't let me still be doing this crap when I'm 70!"

Clearly, whoever you're dealing with is having trouble with the fonts you are supplying, or failing to supply. Are you using the "Package" feature in InDesign to collect all of your fonts? Are you stylizing fonts in PageMaker by using the Bold and Italic buttons? Oh, and do everyone a favor and trash any program that was past it's prime back in the Clinton administration. (yes, that means PageMaker) Adobe dropped it for a reason, and so should you. Why do I get the feeling you still have a copy of MacDraw somewhere in your office? Come on... admit it, you still think it was a fine program, huh?

Why aren't you sending PDF files? Most advertisers prefer PDF's, and printers who aren't using a PDF workflow by now probably won't be in business much longer. Ask your client/vendor for specific settings regarding how they'd like PDFs (bleeds, marks, compression, etc.). If you still have problems making good PDFs, then you probably have font issues on your computer that need to be addressed.

 

[John W]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Inability to further edit the underlying text.

In Illy, and for native file usage, good prepress will make a copy of the text and fill it with none placing it either on its own turned off layer or even just under the outlined version. So editing can indeed be done.
In the alternative, and perhaps a better method, the operator simply outlines and saves as an OL version. Both versions should be provided to the printer so last minute edits can occur, this whether a quasi pdf workflow is used or not, IMO.

Outlines are often better when trapping especially with transparency lurking nearby or when using special colors such as metallic is used when trapping rules depend upon ink sequence and auto traps may not work properly.

I would never recommend outlining standard page work but would indeed suggest it as a viable opiton when:

Special projects require it (seee xample above).
When a job with fonts will not RIP.
When transparency issues affect the font result.
When the designer or a client requires a locked submission that cannot be edited and is willing to at times, sacrifice some quality for that security.

There really cannot be a hard and fast rule here because of too many vagarities of types of work.

John

 

[John W]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

<Why aren't you sending PDF files? Most advertisers prefer PDF's, and printers who aren't using a PDF workflow by now probably won't be in business much longer.>

Oh boy! Please qualify your comment here. I am tired of saying over and over that some forms of print require native files, period. If the design doesn't fit the production, what do you do then? Pdf will not efficiently cut it. Native file always will. And yes, I am a folding carton guy but so what. I will predict that my form of printing will outlast you commercial guys! So there. (Kidding!)

John W

 

[LoweringTheBar]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

JohnS,

Your comment about kerning and whether you should bother is exactly why I chose my screen name 'Loweringthebar.' 24+ years ago, before the Mac, typesetting was an art form performed by skilled craftsman who took pride in their trade. When that craft was placed in the hands of "designers", they became the typesetter, but never acquired the training or skill necessary to perform the job. You began to see widows and orphans everywhere, and nobody cared if there was a half an inch between a "W" and an "I". The very people who used to nitpick galleys of type to death for weeks would now overlook major errors simply because they had done it themselves, and suddenly everything was 'good enough.' Typesetters go to work at McDonalds.

We've seen the same thing in color photography and printing. Years ago, we'd go through round after round of color corrections on scanned images. Today, all you need is a digital point and shoot camera and YOU can become the photographer. Amazingly, it seems that the digital photos are always 'good enough' to not require color correction. Scanner operators go to work at Taco Bell.

Digital presses have lowered the bar by delivering fast color printing that's 'good enough' to hold people over until they print a larger quantity on an offset press. Then, the offset printer gets the pleasure of trying to match a sub-standard toner-based printed piece that has now been established as "the standard" by the client. Prepress operators go insane. (Here come the dealer rep. responses! Bring it on!!!)

Bottom line: once you do something yourself, it's pretty difficult to pass judgment. This is why I will never buy a house where the owner put in their own ceramic tile.

 

[LoweringTheBar]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Hey John W.

We have a Bobst die cutter, so I know something about your plight. When we need to make major edits to a file we would definitely prefer native files. However, JohnS was just having font problems and didn't indicate that the printer needed to dismantle his design.

In our shop, we've found that even with complicated die-cutting jobs we can supply the client with an accurate die file which they can design around. Then, we provide the client with our desired PDF settings so all they have to do is Export a high res PDF and we're ready to go. The client must be trained to use the Separations previewer in InDesign so the color breaks are accurate. All of this requires some on-site training and education with the client, which sadly falls onto the laps of the prepress department. Yet another hat for us to wear, but you don't want to leave this up to a salesman.

If prepress is willing to invest the time with the client, then a press ready PDF can be consistently produced. The flip side to this is that we're essentially cutting our own throats by eliminating the need for file manipulation, further proving that prepress is the most horrible job in the universe. Are you guys hiring?

 

[Tech]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Regarding this issue, I'm with JohnW.

To outline or not, should depend on files received and for solving issues. It should NOT be treated as another STANDARD practice or taboo because PDF is replacing everything.

 

[Jefferson]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

I WISH we were allowed to educate the customer. At our shop the sales people are so worried that if we do anything other than except the customer's pig's ear, make a silk purse out of it, kiss their butts and tell them how wonderful they are, we will lose the account because that is what the rest of the printing world is doing.

 

[LoneGoose]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

> the reason why the type seems to be bolder is that...

Thanks for the insight, Dov!

Is 'hinting' an OpenType feature or is it built into other font formats as well?

-N

 

[John Clifford]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

John S, I'm afraid you have a couple of years on me, but I feel your pain (I'm now entering my 60th year and 40th in the industry). I think that you're using a printer who's also been around for 70 years and who hasn't updated his RIPs or software. This is a common problem. I teach my students to make PDF/X-1a for most applications and to look toward using PDF/X-4 as the APPE (THANK YOU ADOBE) becomes more common place. But I'm sure that just as I get former students who say the printers that their employers use won't take a PDF, that there will in 10 years be printers who still won't even take a PDF/X-4 because they're using some older Harlequin RIP that didn't even do PostScript well.

To LoweringTheBar, I've been making this same argument for a lloooonnnggg time. I remember when Compugraphic was selling their photo typesetting units to in-house departments at companies with the promise that 'This is so simple you no longer need to buy expensive type. Your secretary can learn to set all your type needs with just 6 hours of training.' When I bought my equipment, I ended up teaching the trainers a bunch of tricks. When I took off-site training, I was with a group of women from Sears who had never set type and couldn't figure out why you'd need more than 6 or 8 fonts. And kerning? Hahahahaha. The introduction of the Mac just made it worse. We tried to at least have the clients submit their files to us so we could fix them in areas like kerning, but we were told that they had to justify the expense of the Macs and they could suddenly live with things that a year earlier would have lost us their work.

Not to jump the gun on Dov, hinting has been in type 1 Postscript fonts forever and is "sometimes" also included in TrueType (the technology is there and those who create good fonts use it, the schlockmeisters don't). So it's not an OpenType feature.

 

[Andy]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Hi John,

John writes:
> I teach my students to make PDF/X-1a for most applications and to look toward using PDF/X-4 as the APPE ... becomes more common place. But I'm sure that just as I get former students who say the printers that their employers use won't take a PDF, that there will in 10 years be printers who still won't even take a PDF/X-4 because they're using some older Harlequin RIP that didn't even do PostScript well.

FYI There's no need to wait and look towards using PDF/X-4, as you can use it now if you have a Harlequin v8 RIP. And PDF/X-4 has nothing to do with PostScript in the Harlequin RIP, as it's PDF and Harlequin RIPs have always had native PDF interpretation (unlike Adobe RIPs).

I also don't know what John's experience is with Harlequin RIPs, but historically, they've always processed PostScript extremely well (and anything to the contrary has usually been marketing hype or prejudice). In fact that's one of the reasons Harlequin survived and did so well in the 90s - precisely because they did process PostScript incredibly well. In fact when I was there, we had numerous jobs in our tests suite that the Harlequin RIP could process, but various Adobe, Hyphen, CAI, etc... RIPs couldn't at all. And we also had PostScript jobs that different Adobe RIPs gave different results on!! Harlequin also consistently came out top in the Seybold Performance tests, shootouts, etc...

I was at Drupa these last two weeks and found Adobe's presentation on APPE rather interesting. The gist of their presentation was that so much goes wrong in printing (vignettes, overprints, fonts, traps,...), that you need the Adobe PPE to guarantee that things come out right (which in fact if you examine it closely is a slightly self-contradicting argument). Well, I for one found the first part of that interesting, as that's precisely what we argue when we talk about the need for post-rip (virtual) proofing with our FirstPROOF product. I also found the second part of that very interesting too, as it rather hit me in the face that what Adobe are doing here in their marketing is a real hark back to the 90s when they tried to convince the market that you had to have an Adobe PostScript printer to guarantee correct output. Although they spent years trying to convince the market place that this was the case, the superior technology of Harlequin came through and took a commanding lead.

The Harlequin RIP has been doing (native) PDF for long enough that Global have enough expertise & experience there to do a good job, so you don't have to have the APPE to get good results. In fact Harlequin have been doing native PDF for much longer than Adobe, so you could argue have a more established technology there. But at the end of the day, it's what works and is cost effective which people care about, although sales & marketing campagins/strategies do pay a large part in it too.

It appears that we're on for a repeat of this kind of Adobe led marketing battle against Harlequin and other RIPs. At the end of the day, the challenge is there I think to Global Graphics and other RIP vendors to continue to innovate and produce superior technology. As an outsider now (to both Harlequin and Adobe), it will be interesting to watch and see how that battle develops...

Regards,

Andy.

Andy Cave,
Chief Executive Officer,
Hamillroad Software Limited.
www.firstproof.com
www.hamillroad.com

 

[John W]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Thank you LTB, for your comments.

Because we have about 30,000 legacy files that keep being reused, we keep our old workflow. Heck, sometimes this old postscript way can resolve new jobs that keep cocking up. What you say about educations is valid providing you have a direct access to the clients. We often don't. For example, we get a file from Europe in some foreign language and have to rebuild the files to use with our dies (we make our die layouts with Cimex). Then add Braille or translation or some other issue such as dust flap mod. I'm not saying a pdf workflow cannot work for us, I'm saying that it is, for the most part, inefficient (read cost $).

At best I would recommend two workflows if we must forego native, an old ps way and a new pdf way. The HqRips can handle both systems nearly flawlessly so you still kind of have a ROOM method. Then the trouble comes with combination runs where some skus are old method and some are new method. In that case our experience shows convert to Old not New is the better method; it creates less unforeseen error.

Call me a complainer if you want but these guys that keep harping pdf and Adobe, UMA, just don't live in reality and think I'm the one that's out of it while we keep generating profit.

John W

 

[javadave]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

I fully appreciate the statements made against PDF workflows by those
involved primarily in packaging. But they must also realize that the
other 98% of us out here working with books, posters, advertising,
magazines, and countless other types of printed matter DO find PDF
workflows to be efficient, cost-saving, and effective.

The needs and requirements of packaging are nothing like those of all
the rest of printing and publishing. Before you jump to conclusions
that everyone who talks about PDF is not living in reality, please
realize that your reality is not necessarily that of everyone else.

David

 

[John W]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

David,
Okay, that's a fair point. You must excuse me as the perceived minority. I'm sure you can realize that vendor marketing often paints with too general a brush and that perhaps is my complaint.
If that vendor brush eventually kills the method needed for this work (and it just may because they all want the monopoly), you'll all have to accept a plain corrugated box with a upc label for all your carton work along side a virtual reality store that shows the fancy packaging and then print will be forever dead. Just ask Microsoft Steve who claims that print will be in ten years!

John W

 

[John Clifford]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Andy,

Most of my experience with Harlequin is, admittedly, second hand. The companies that I've worked for have had Agfa/Adobe RIPs and I was very familiar with the problems, work-arounds, and other "glitches" that were necessary to get out the file. However, as a composition company, we were often providing files to printers or prepress houses. It seemed that we had problems with files when they went to Harlequin or Rampage RIPs, but never when they went to Adobe RIPs, so my perspective is somewhat skewed (and it's probably because we already knew what to fix for Adobe RIPs prior to sending out the files.

So my comment should just have been that students will still need to be aware that PDF/X-4 will not be appropriate on some legacy material.

 

[call_me_ted]

Re: Kerning and Outlining fonts

Probably not the issue for the original poster, but I got burned a few times with pagemaker windows being device dependent. Same font can reflow depending on printer driver.