KM 1200 vs OCE 4120

[Starops]

Hi, I'm currently looking at replacing my continuous form OCE Pagestream printers with cut sheet. I do about 1.3mil (B/W) a month in a 24/7 shop, but have long idle times and short production windows.

Having talked to both OCE and Konica, our likely choice will be 3 x KM 1200P or 3 x OCE 4120, but I can not find a comparison for them. Most of the specs seem very comparable, but I'm concerned with the term "fast-plastic" being applied to one or both.

Anyone know how these machines compare to each other? Splitting my total usage among 3 or even 2 of the machines is well under thier monthly capacity, but I do not want breakages in my production windows because they are not build to last.

Any opinions would be much appreciated!

 

[BigTony]

Starops - I'm new to this blog but I've been in the hardware printer sales biz for several decades; I work for Oce in sales so that's my bias in answering your question. You didn't state some important facts about your print jobs like their typical sheet size, weight, simplex vs. duplex, etc. Moving on...
You know that Canon purchased Oce a few months ago but we're still selling and servicing several KM products including the 65 ppm color (6501) and the 105 ppm monochrome (BizHub 1050) as we have for several years. So I've had experience on the mono side with their older unit but zero experience with the new 1200 model which Oce is not reselling. With that being said and based on similar monthly volumes, the 1050 requires service calls much more frequently than the Copy Press-based systems like the 4120 and its predecessors (2110, 3110, etc.). They are constructed with more steel than the comparable KM products; I hope you have the chance to judge their construction features first hand. Perhaps the new 1200 is not just a speed jump over the 1050 and has improved in its basic engineering. I will say that your PageStreams were probably on a 24x7 maintenance plan and that they rarely failed (most PS models can easily handle 5-10 times your volume) - but they also weight in at a ton per engine so that's not a fair comparison to lighter-weight cut-sheet hardware, Oce's or KM's. An important consideration is support - I don't know if you're considering KM direct for service or going through a dealer but it would be unusual for them to offer 24x7 coverage and/or 2-hour response to your service call if you're in a major metro area - which Oce will offer as options for the 4120. Also, I don't know your floor space situation but since your volume is pretty low and your workflow has peaks and valleys, you might consider going with two boxes at first and the extended service coverage and determine if you really need box #3. Let me know if you have add'l questions on the 4120 or any Oce product - and good luck with your final choice!

Big Tony

 

[Digital Press Guy]

Starops - I'm new to this blog but I've been in the hardware printer sales biz for several decades; I work for Oce in sales so that's my bias in answering your question. You didn't state some important facts about your print jobs like their typical sheet size, weight, simplex vs. duplex, etc. Moving on...
You know that Canon purchased Oce a few months ago but we're still selling and servicing several KM products including the 65 ppm color (6501) and the 105 ppm monochrome (BizHub 1050) as we have for several years. So I've had experience on the mono side with their older unit but zero experience with the new 1200 model which Oce is not reselling. With that being said and based on similar monthly volumes, the 1050 requires service calls much more frequently than the Copy Press-based systems like the 4120 and its predecessors (2110, 3110, etc.). They are constructed with more steel than the comparable KM products; I hope you have the chance to judge their construction features first hand. Perhaps the new 1200 is not just a speed jump over the 1050 and has improved in its basic engineering. I will say that your PageStreams were probably on a 24x7 maintenance plan and that they rarely failed (most PS models can easily handle 5-10 times your volume) - but they also weight in at a ton per engine so that's not a fair comparison to lighter-weight cut-sheet hardware, Oce's or KM's. An important consideration is support - I don't know if you're considering KM direct for service or going through a dealer but it would be unusual for them to offer 24x7 coverage and/or 2-hour response to your service call if you're in a major metro area - which Oce will offer as options for the 4120. Also, I don't know your floor space situation but since your volume is pretty low and your workflow has peaks and valleys, you might consider going with two boxes at first and the extended service coverage and determine if you really need box #3. Let me know if you have add'l questions on the 4120 or any Oce product - and good luck with your final choice!

Big Tony

To try and paint the 1200 as a 1050 simple upgrade and then compare that to an Oce box is not a fair comparison.

The KM 1200 is more than a reworked 1050. The engine is a completely new. The duty cycle is substantially upgraded. The output and media handling capabilities have taken a huge step up. The image quality is outstanding.

Running multiple engines is always a good idea when it makes economic sense. Even with 24/7 support machines break down and 24/7 support is expensive. Redundancy may be a much better solution.

Running multiple engines should require that you consider the entire workflow. A Micropress of something similar is pretty much a requirement to get the most out of your engines.

As for my bias, I do not work for any hardware manufacturer.

 

[CSimpson]

Go with the Oce 4120!

I have a 6250 and I am under the understanding that the 4120 uses the same feed mechanics, output stacker, and the same print engine compared 6250 the difference being the the 6250 has two engines instead of one. If this is the case the 4120 is the better choice I am sure of it. On my 6250 I am getting 1.5 million between service calls, I rarely have jams, and the speed is media independent. You do not have different setting for different paper weight and the print quality is great especially on halftones.

Ask people who own a 4120 to verify their experience has been similar to mine. If so I would take the proven reliability and quality of the 4120 before I took a gamble on the 1200 unless of course there is some major difference in price.

 

[BigTony]

DigitalPressGuy -

"...So I've had experience on the mono side with their older unit but zero experience with the new 1200 model..."

"...Perhaps the new 1200 is not just a speed jump over the 1050 and has improved in its basic engineering..."

And perhaps reading and understanding sentences is just not your thing? Serves me right for trying to be impartial. Ok then; how's this? -

The Model 1200 is just as unreliable as the older BizHub 1050 even though I have no experience with it and Oce is always the superior manufacturer vs. Everybody Else because I happen to work for them.

That ought to do it, lol!

Re VP6000s...as the previous poster (and VP6000 user) mentions, it's a very reliable unit. You could go with one VP6160 at 160 ipm and, with the SpeedPass option, increase its speed to 250 ipm when called for (quarterly and annual reports, etc). Then also procure a back-up VP4110 and go with standard service plan, 5x8, on both boxes to cut fixed costs. This would really make sense if most of your jobs are letter duplex.

BT

BT

 

[Starops]

Thank you everyone for your responses!

For the record, we mainly just print text reports on either of 2 sizes of paper: 8 1/2 x 11 for ~40% of volume, 14 7/8 x 11 (to become ledger on cut sheet) for ~20% of volume. Another 40% of volume is a 14 7/8 x 11 preprinted form that is spliced and burst separately from the printer and which will save a lot of labor by using cut sheet. Nothing tricky here.

I expect to get some conversion to duplex print, but not of a substancial amount to warrant a 6250. I am also required to get up to 70,000 images out in a 4hr production window at night, though we usually run less than that. Yes 24/7 coverage is a must, and yes KM had to think about fulfilling that commitment (did not give me the warm fuzzies). Cost wise, KM came through significantly lower than OCE, who can only break even with current costs.

I was hoping that there would be a relevent comparison between the KM and OCE products that would identify if they are equal or note their shortfalls. I just haven't found that, and would like some experienced insight.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Starops

 

[BigTony]

Starops...if you need to print 70k images in 4 hours that's approx 292 ipm with 100%, non-stop printing. So you would need three 120 ipm or two 160 ipm systems to get that done. And if those 70k images are larger format than letter...you won't be seeing the printer's top speed rating.

As for a head-to-head comparison between the KM1200 and Oce VP4120...I doubt there's a site in the country that's had both in their shop because of how new they are to the marketplace.

24x7 service - it's a lot more than stating in a contract, "Yes - we'll wake somebody up in the middle of the night to respond to your call...so sign here and press hard; you're making three copies."

It takes years to obtain a customer base that supports the personnel infrastructure for 24x7 coverage and then there's the costly structure for metro parts warehouses open 24x7 - so when the FE shows up at your door at 2am, he/she can fix the printer without having somebody else come back the next day.

You have 24x7 on your VarioStreams today...what happens when the FE covering 3rd shift is on vacation or calls in sick? There's somebody taking his place. Will there be with a vendor offering very limited 24x7 coverage to one or two customers in your area? If you believe that's going to happen with a vendor that has never offered 24x7 coverage on a routine basis...send me an email - I've got a bridge to sell you, lol!

And I'm glad to hear that the 1200 has new engineering to overcome the problems with the previous KM1050s. Let's see...

Brand new hardware design: Done
New and exclusive parts to stock: Get the order; we'll worry about local parts stock as needed
Estimated vendor cost to keep parts warehouse open 24x7: Forget about it
New 24x7 coverage program just for Starops: Quote approved and sent to Starops
Telling the FE team that somebody will now always be on call, 2nd & 3rd shift: Priceless

But then again - I could be wrong.

 

[JayDA]

Brand new hardware design: Done
New and exclusive parts to stock: Get the order; we'll worry about local parts stock as needed
Estimated vendor cost to keep parts warehouse open 24x7: Forget about it
New 24x7 coverage program just for Starops: Quote approved and sent to Starops
Telling the FE team that somebody will now always be on call, 2nd & 3rd shift: Priceless

But then again - I could be wrong.

I have a hard enough time getting Konica to respond to my service calls during the day,they are simply not set up YET to deal with real production print. I have six machines currently under service, including two 1050's. I originally obtained these two machines to avoid putting a continuous machine(s) in, and I described EXACTLY what I was looking to with them. They sit idle the majority of the time, but I have a few large runs every month, in the 400-500k range, that need to be turned in a week...seems reasonable right? WRONG. Those runs are going to get sent out to a continuous shop pretty soon...as they can't seem to keep these boxes up for more then a day at a time. If you want a real world perspective on Konica promises and what they deliver, feel free to email me.

 

[exify]

Konica seems understaffed. In our area, there are only 2 color techs and they are constantly swamped and overworked.

 

[JayDA]

Konica seems understaffed. In our area, there are only 2 color techs and they are constantly swamped and overworked.

Hey...look at the bright side...at lease you have two. When my tech takes a day off I'm the one that has to call his manager to get someone else sent out....if I don't call....I don't get service until the next day.

 

[Jorge Pease]

Real World Perspective

Real World Perspective

I have a hard enough time getting Konica to respond to my service calls during the day,they are simply not set up YET to deal with real production print. I have six machines currently under service, including two 1050's. I originally obtained these two machines to avoid putting a continuous machine(s) in, and I described EXACTLY what I was looking to with them. They sit idle the majority of the time, but I have a few large runs every month, in the 400-500k range, that need to be turned in a week...seems reasonable right? WRONG. Those runs are going to get sent out to a continuous shop pretty soon...as they can't seem to keep these boxes up for more then a day at a time. If you want a real world perspective on Konica promises and what they deliver, feel free to email me.

Hi, would love to hear your experience. We started our print dept with 2 110 ppm Ricoh's and ran them into the ground. Techs couldn't keep them running for even a day between service calls. After that experience we switched to much more expensive Koday Digimasters and they do get the job done, still break down, but less frequently as those plastic machines.

We also got an Indigo that did pretty well for awhile and now has started to give us a few issues but quality is excellent.

Im talking with KM now regarding adding a couple of the 1200's and a couple of the new C8000's but the experience with Ricoh is not forgotten. I'd heard good things about Konica , that is why I considered them but would love to hear real world experience, the spiel I got from them on service sounded pretty good.

Thanks my email is [email protected]