KM C7000 vs RICOH C751EX

hitye

Member
I 'm just considering to change my old C6500. I'm really interesting in the new C7000, but the SD 506 (saddle stitch) seems very expensive, and other finishers of konica can only fold up to A3 paper, same as what I have now.
Last week I got a news from Ricoh that they released a new model C751ex, so I went to test the new machine. The result is not bad. It can fold SRA3 paper and staple directly and the registration is very very good. Just the colour is not glossy as C7000. And the price of C751ex seems very competitively.
Don't know how to choose...give me some suggestion please, thx.
 

jotterpinky

Well-known member
We just purchased a KM6000 and have been very pleased with the quality of print off the engine. One area that has been a problem for us has been sheet to sheet registration. We also run Xerox 700's and they hold much, much tighter registration for front to back as well as sheet to sheet.

On the KM 6000 we're getting as much as 3mm difference...something I'm told should be much tighter, by the sales monkey as well as the technician.

I've attached a photo showing a stack of 12 point stock we printed (jogged in our paper cutter so the edges are all flush) the variation in the print is seen from the edge of the stack.
 

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Craig

Well-known member
The SD 506 finisher is worth the money. We have one on our 1200 and have put close to 10,000 booklets through it in the last month and a half. It's a beast.
 

kalindd

Active member
On the KM 6000 we're getting as much as 3mm difference...something I'm told should be much tighter, by the sales monkey as well as the technician.

3mm is unacceptable. Call your tech and tell them to fix it.
If he can't you need someone with experience.
If the lead edge is varying more then 0,5mm to 1mm then something is wrong either with engine or your tech.
Have you tried to reduce or increase the paper loop?
Basically for heavyweight paper you need to reduce the loop, and for light need to increase it.
Check this, ( this taken from u8ertech C6501 book) it may be useful for you.

"The c6500 (C6000) uses a loop system to insure good registration. This is made up of a large rubber roller and
steel roller pressed against each other using springs. From the factory these springs are set to the
lightest setting. At this setting the registration is not 100% effective especially on heavy stocks. There
is no way of visually telling if the springs have been adjusted without disassembling the reg unit. If you
have found after preforming the restart timing adjustment that the registration wanders more than
1mm you should probably have the unit checked out. This adjustment does not appear to be common
knowledge. However even with this tension increased some stocks may wander but this is pretty
uncommon."
 

hitye

Member
The SD 506 finisher is worth the money. We have one on our 1200 and have put close to 10,000 booklets through it in the last month and a half. It's a beast.


But sd506 only can do face cutting, the ricoh trimmer can do 3 sides edge cutting, of course it is also expensive.
My opinion is that ricoh normal finisher can make booklet from SRA3 paper, but if I choose Konica, I must have the expensive SD506, which can only do face cutting. That's really not a big difference to do 2 or 3 edges cutting for me.
 

PrintTriks

Well-known member
I went and looked at a the c651ex, I kinda like it. I will be looking at the 6000 next and deciding between the 2.
 

jotterpinky

Well-known member
our technician looked everything over and tightened the registration on our KM 6000 up some, however it's still not as good as our Xerox 700, the worst part is I'm being told there is no skew adjustment on the machine, and our main problem now is the skew on the sheet. We've gone through the alignment setup on the machine and we can get the sample prints looking pretty good. We'll print out an actual file and the first few copies look good. However if we run several hundred and then cut them you can see quite a bit of variation up to 2mm sometimes, the lead edge (gripper edge) is very consistent, the tail edge moves up and down a fair bit skewing the print on the sheet.

After all this the technician states that's as good as it gets, naturally we were not happy and have since talked to our salesman to get this issue resolved. They are currently looking into it. I showed him the documentation on the registration roller that was posted previously but apparently he thought it was greek since he did nothing with it.

Does anyone have something similar to a CED (Customer expectation document) for the KM 6000 printer? I would be interested in what they are guaranteeing for this machine.
 

ShortRunMagazines

Well-known member
I can't believe they claim that is as good as it gets! I'd personally throw that machine in the street if it were in my shop!

We run Xerox machines here and I showed your photo to our sales rep and our tech and both agreed it sucked (but you already knew that!). We all got a chuckle out of the comparison to the X700 registration because we think the X700 is loose (we are used to .5mm). I honestly don't see how you are selling those prints. Guess I don't need to look at KM on my next round of upgrades.

Good luck and keep us posted!
 

kalindd

Active member
our technician looked everything over and tightened the registration on our KM 6000 up some, however it's still not as good as our Xerox 700, the worst part is I'm being told there is no skew adjustment on the machine, and our main problem now is the skew on the sheet. We've gone through the alignment setup on the machine and we can get the sample prints looking pretty good. We'll print out an actual file and the first few copies look good. However if we run several hundred and then cut them you can see quite a bit of variation up to 2mm sometimes, the lead edge (gripper edge) is very consistent, the tail edge moves up and down a fair bit skewing the print on the sheet.

After all this the technician states that's as good as it gets, naturally we were not happy and have since talked to our salesman to get this issue resolved. They are currently looking into it. I showed him the documentation on the registration roller that was posted previously but apparently he thought it was greek since he did nothing with it.

Does anyone have something similar to a CED (Customer expectation document) for the KM 6000 printer? I would be interested in what they are guaranteeing for this machine.
I can't believe it!
X700 is great machine, but C7000 is also great.
Can you please tell me which configuration you have C7000 with PF-602 or LU-202?
 

mogrsi

Member
I 'm just considering to change my old C6500. I'm really interesting in the new C7000, but the SD 506 (saddle stitch) seems very expensive, and other finishers of konica can only fold up to A3 paper, same as what I have now.
Last week I got a news from Ricoh that they released a new model C751ex, so I went to test the new machine. The result is not bad. It can fold SRA3 paper and staple directly and the registration is very very good. Just the colour is not glossy as C7000. And the price of C751ex seems very competitively.
Don't know how to choose...give me some suggestion please, thx.

The new Xerox 770 surely it's worth a look!

- Automated Color Quality Suite (ACQS) with its inline spectrophotometer
- Automatically print two-sided on coated paper up to 100 lb. cover / 300 g/m²
- Certified by Fogra, PANTONE® Matching System, PANTONE GOE™, and PANTONE Plus

Need more info? clic here
 

jotterpinky

Well-known member
we have the two drawer PF-602. We've been only running this stock from drawer 5 (bottom drawer), today after the technician left I played with the "registration loop" taking it down to -60 which seemed to make a big difference. However he was back later to look at a color consistency issue from the top to the bottom of the sheet, in addition to magenta stripes perpendicular to the direction of travel. Normally on our Xerox we simply change the drum for stripes like this or swap with a yellow drum which makes it less noticeable. This is not really an option on this KM as the drums are supposed to be rated for a much longer life. As for different color top to bottom of sheet a charge corona seemed to clear that up.

I'll keep you posted on how the registration is moving forward. It's a shame that our service seems a little dodgy as we really thought the image quality was superior to what we're getting off our Xerox 700. We thought we would be able to equally run these two side-by-side but up to this point anything that requires any sort of registration needs to be printed on the Xerox.

I might also note that if you have the option to get the de-curler on the KM 6000/7000 that you seriously consider it. We didn't and it seems like single sided prints are very curled when using C1S paper stock, so much so in fact that the first print is pushed from the finisher to the floor by the second sheet, and so forth. Double sided seems to be fine though.
 
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Toner4Brains

Active member
our technician looked everything over and tightened the registration on our KM 6000 up some, however it's still not as good as our Xerox 700, the worst part is I'm being told there is no skew adjustment on the machine, and our main problem now is the skew on the sheet. We've gone through the alignment setup on the machine and we can get the sample prints looking pretty good. We'll print out an actual file and the first few copies look good. However if we run several hundred and then cut them you can see quite a bit of variation up to 2mm sometimes, the lead edge (gripper edge) is very consistent, the tail edge moves up and down a fair bit skewing the print on the sheet.

After all this the technician states that's as good as it gets, naturally we were not happy and have since talked to our salesman to get this issue resolved. They are currently looking into it. I showed him the documentation on the registration roller that was posted previously but apparently he thought it was greek since he did nothing with it.

Does anyone have something similar to a CED (Customer expectation document) for the KM 6000 printer? I would be interested in what they are guaranteeing for this machine.

There is an adjustment for skew, and I'm very familiar with both the Xerox 700 and the KM C7000 - you should be getting similar registration from both.

Please read through this thoroughly even if you've been walked through this process as there are small details that may be causing the issue you are having. Once you are familiar with it it will not take more than 5-10 minutes and you won't have to do it very often once it is set up properly in the media catalog. PM me with any questions.

The C6000/C7000 have the ability to tie all of the registration settings I'm about to walk through to individual media catalog entries. If you do not currently operate using a paper catalog I would suggest you set one up so you can save the proper registration settings for that paper.

In the PF602, loosen the side guides and place 5 or so sheets in the drawer and keep the drawer open - do not tighten the side guides. On the left side of the drawer, you will see a blue tie-down knob that can slide laterally inside a groove. When left loose, the knob will be forced to one side of the groove - slide it to the other side and tighten it to lock it in place. Close the drawer. You'll hear the tray raising up and once it does, open the drawer and it will be locked in the feeding position. Tighten the side guides to be firm enough against the sheets to not have any lateral movement if you place your hand on it and try to move it, but make sure it is not so tight that it is bowing the paper. Loosen the blue knob on the left side to drop the tray back down and load the rest of your stock. This will eliminate lateral movement or whipping at the feeding position.

Once the paper is loaded, go to the "Paper Settings" menu on the UI, hit "Change Set", and hit "Both Sides Adj". There are adjustments for Magnification, Image Shift, and Registration Loop which should all be set to 0 if you've never done this before. You'll see options for "Front" and "Back" along the top, keep it set on "Front" and hit "Chart Adjustment". On the next screen, select "Print Mode" on the bottom. You can select a quantity of sheets by using the number pad hard buttons below the touch screen on the UI - YOU MUST PRINT AT LEAST 3 SHEETS AND TAKE MEASUREMENTS FROM THE THIRD SHEET to properly adjust registration, as it takes 2 sheets to actively register to the paper position. Once the fuser comes to temp the "Start" button will turn blue, hit it, and grab the top sheet. With a mm ruler, measure each line to either where it intersects with the adjacent line or to the edge of the sheet if it does not intersect. Input these measurements and hit "Adjustment Start". This will center the image on the sheet and adjust for proper magnification of the image. When you get back to the Both Sides menu you'll see the 0's have been automatically changed to the proper adjustment.

From the Both Sides menu, hit the "Back" button and repeat the chart adjustment process. After properly centering and scaling the image with the front chart adjustment, the back chart adjustment will allow you to align the back side to the front side (its basically a cross hair in each corner and you input how far off the back is from the front on the X and Y axis in each corner). This measurement is additive, so if you don't get it right the first time you can print out another set of charts to tweak it further. If you can get one corner lined up and see skew in the other 3, move on to the Registration Loop adjustment below.

Once you get back to the Both Sides Menu, the last adjustment is the "Registration Loop" setting. The Registration Loop Adjustment will allow you to adjust skew. The registration unit has 2 sets of nip rollers - a drive roller that is continuously feeding into a registration roller that is timed to turn on and off intermittently. The timing is such that the drive roller will feed a sheet into the stationary registration roller which lags prior to feeding. As the drive rollers continue to feed against the stationary registration roller, it will cause the paper to "loop" or rise up in the center and snap perpendicular to the registration roller eliminating skew in paper. This concept is very similar to a gate system if you are familiar. When set at "0", heavier paper will simply pass through the roller system without snapping. If set too high, you will see wrinkling or jamming in the registration unit as the paper won't be able to feed through it, so you want to set it high enough to effect skew but not so high that the paper can't feed.

To save these to the paper catalog entry (as they will be different for 80# text vs. 100# cover for obvious reasons), hit "Register", pick the name of the paper you are working on if it is already created to overwrite it, or type the name of the paper if it is your first time, and save it. If you've done these adjustments and you still get poor registration, you need to escalate it through your local service department.
 
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hitye

Member
There is an adjustment for skew, and I'm very familiar with both the Xerox 700 and the KM C7000 - you should be getting similar registration from both.

Please read through this thoroughly even if you've been walked through this process as there are small details that may be causing the issue you are having. Once you are familiar with it it will not take more than 5-10 minutes and you won't have to do it very often once it is set up properly in the media catalog. PM me with any questions.

The C6000/C7000 have the ability to tie all of the registration settings I'm about to walk through to individual media catalog entries. If you do not currently operate using a paper catalog I would suggest you set one up so you can save the proper registration settings for that paper.

In the PF602, loosen the side guides and place 5 or so sheets in the drawer and keep the drawer open - do not tighten the side guides. On the left side of the drawer, you will see a blue tie-down knob that can slide laterally inside a groove. When left loose, the knob will be forced to one side of the groove - slide it to the other side and tighten it to lock it in place. Close the drawer. You'll hear the tray raising up and once it does, open the drawer and it will be locked in the feeding position. Tighten the side guides to be firm enough against the sheets to not have any lateral movement if you place your hand on it and try to move it, but make sure it is not so tight that it is bowing the paper. Loosen the blue knob on the left side to drop the tray back down and load the rest of your stock. This will eliminate lateral movement or whipping at the feeding position.

Once the paper is loaded, go to the "Paper Settings" menu on the UI, hit "Change Set", and hit "Both Sides Adj". There are adjustments for Magnification, Image Shift, and Registration Loop which should all be set to 0 if you've never done this before. You'll see options for "Front" and "Back" along the top, keep it set on "Front" and hit "Chart Adjustment". On the next screen, select "Print Mode" on the bottom. You can select a quantity of sheets by using the number pad hard buttons below the touch screen on the UI - YOU MUST PRINT AT LEAST 3 SHEETS AND TAKE MEASUREMENTS FROM THE THIRD SHEET to properly adjust registration, as it takes 2 sheets to actively register to the paper position. Once the fuser comes to temp the "Start" button will turn blue, hit it, and grab the top sheet. With a mm ruler, measure each line to either where it intersects with the adjacent line or to the edge of the sheet if it does not intersect. Input these measurements and hit "Adjustment Start". This will center the image on the sheet and adjust for proper magnification of the image. When you get back to the Both Sides menu you'll see the 0's have been automatically changed to the proper adjustment.

From the Both Sides menu, hit the "Back" button and repeat the chart adjustment process. After properly centering and scaling the image with the front chart adjustment, the back chart adjustment will allow you to align the back side to the front side (its basically a cross hair in each corner and you input how far off the back is from the front on the X and Y axis in each corner). This measurement is additive, so if you don't get it right the first time you can print out another set of charts to tweak it further. If you can get one corner lined up and see skew in the other 3, move on to the Registration Loop adjustment below.

Once you get back to the Both Sides Menu, the last adjustment is the "Registration Loop" setting. The Registration Loop Adjustment will allow you to adjust skew. The registration unit has 2 sets of nip rollers - a drive roller that is continuously feeding into a registration roller that is timed to turn on and off intermittently. The timing is such that the drive roller will feed a sheet into the stationary registration roller which lags prior to feeding. As the drive rollers continue to feed against the stationary registration roller, it will cause the paper to "loop" or rise up in the center and snap perpendicular to the registration roller eliminating skew in paper. This concept is very similar to a gate system if you are familiar. When set at "0", heavier paper will simply pass through the roller system without snapping. If set too high, you will see wrinkling or jamming in the registration unit as the paper won't be able to feed through it, so you want to set it high enough to effect skew but not so high that the paper can't feed.

To save these to the paper catalog entry (as they will be different for 80# text vs. 100# cover for obvious reasons), hit "Register", pick the name of the paper you are working on if it is already created to overwrite it, or type the name of the paper if it is your first time, and save it. If you've done these adjustments and you still get poor registration, you need to escalate it through your local service department.

thx for your knowledge, I think you maybe a tech of konica..and you are better than what I met before...they even don't know how the registration loop affect on different weight papre...
My C7000 was installed last Friday. But not very happy with it, as we got the skewed image soon...konica tech came to solve it, but it seems he has no patient to do that work,every time he did some changes and got a result, he showed to me and then asked whether I were satisfied...but everytime the image was skewed..
then I told him, I got this new machine and just want to solve this problem which always happened on my old C6500, the skewed image...
Then after another 30 mins, he showed to me the result, not very good, but better than before..I think that maybe his limit...so I let him go...

I will try what you said tomorrow.
thx
 

Stixxon

Member
RICHoh 751 EX VS KM7000

RICHoh 751 EX VS KM7000

I am trying to come to a conclusion on km 6000/7000 vs the RICOH 751ex. The Ricoh 751ex prints perfectly straight but is a new product. Can the skewing and registration be corrected on these machines or is this a defect that they are telling the purchaser they have to live with after they purchase. I read techs saying that other techs dont know what they are doing and it can be fixed. My km6500 has never been fixed and been told this is acceptable. Im confused what is the real answer to this issue.
 

PrintTriks

Well-known member
Stixxon I'm with you, my old C500 has the same skewing problem as the 6000 I demo'ed . They told me they could fix it but at the demo but were unable to. I am gambling on the Ricoh myself, mainly because of speed, registration and skewing because the Konica has the better image quality IMO. It's just not that much better quality to fight the other issues every day.
 

Stixxon

Member
cutting nightmare

cutting nightmare

This skewing causes a cutting nightmare. I need something that is consistent registration.
At the demo the Ricoh 751ex ran 5000 10pt duplex and the copy was extremely tight. When i cut the job it was like a press. No movement and the color seemed really good. The km6500 has been extremely reliable and has proven itself over and over. The only problem is more and more jobs are demanding critical cutting. This is a decision that has to weigh on whats most important; jumpy registration or proven reliability.
 
I'm still waiting for our C751 to arrive and be installed. I's been my philosophy thus far as a printer that if you NEED super high quality, really high speed and excellent registration it won't be found in a digital copy machine, I always expect some type of compromise. It will be interesting to see what the C751 does over a period of time.

-Mark-
 

neleson

Active member
Hi,



My vote goes for KM C7000. Konica Minolta presents three versions of an innovative, high speed colour digital system that takes image quality and consistency to new heights. It’s amazing imaging capabilities in combination with a sturdy construction, professional feature set and attractive affordability make this the ideal entry level print production solution for CRD’s, print providers and professionals in advertising agencies.
 
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