Looking for FM screened film output

[gordo]

Hi,

I received a request to find a service bureau/job shop, that can run large imagesetter film using second order FM screening (the type with the "worms" Staccato, HDS, Taffeta, etc).

If you can do this please email me at pritchardgordon @ gmail dot com

thanks, gordo

 

[dreko]

Hi Gordon,

Thanks for posting on the board for me! Actually, I need 1st order stochastic film, up to 8 up sizes (if possible)... Ideally the Scitex Fultone setup. It's stochastic algorithm of dots and 'worms' is what I'd like to use. The Staccato FM, being 2nd order, is not going to work in the shadow areas for our print process.

So if anyone on the boards knows of a service bureau/job shop that still runs imagesetter films AND can do the appropriate stochastic dot, please let me know.
You can email me directly too.... or through gordon...

andre dot ribuoli @ gmail dot com

thanks, andre

 

[gordo]

Just to make sure that the terminology is correct.

Attached are three images that contain two tones - 10% and 40%:

Scitex Fulltone - second order FM
Staccato (HDS, Taffeta, etc.) - second order FM
Generic diffusion dither - first order FM

These are not to the same scales but they show their typical dot structures. Click on thumbnail to embiggen.

best, gordo

 

[dreko]

Hmmm... that is an interesting thumbnail. I'm going to scan a couple of films I have, a fulltone and generic diffusion dither... I have a film from 1999 that is Fultone, it seems a bit different from the thumbnail, in that it doesn't seem to get 'fat' in the wormy line areas.

I'll try to upload the images later today...
thanks!
Andre

 

[Liviu]

Hello guys,

You can output film on any Trendsetter 8UP device (using Kodak DITR film). It is only one requirement to have external vent mounted on debris removal unit (a simple tube routed outside the building). Of course media should be properly setted in device. You can have FM screen with 25 microns feature size but I successfully made with 20 microns and it is OK (verified on press using classic analog plates, Kodak Classic Print processed in Goldstar Premium).

Note: At first look DITR film is strange as aspect but density in UV light is very high allowing high exposing time.

Regards,
Liviu

 

[dreko]

Hi Liviu,

Thanks for the information. So do you know of any jobshops doing the technique you propose?
thanks
A

 

[Liviu]

Hi Andre,

I know, but.... it's a litle bit faaaaaaar away (about 4700 miles) in East Europe and device will be installed later in July.

Please note: DITR can be installed on mark II, III and IV Trensetters (those devices allow double burn of media) and need NOT to have autoloader. Also you can expose on any Flexcell Trendsetter.

 

[dreko]

Hi Liviu,

Ok, understood... platemaker installation will be ready in July. Can you PM me the service bureau contact information? I guess email would be best, as I can use language translators. It sounds like a complicated way to produce a film, but I guess the bigger problem for me, is I prefer the stochastic algorithm from Scitex... 10 micron sizing... so unless they will have that particular style of stochastic screen... I'll keep my searching going....

best

 

[Liviu]

For sure 10 microns spot size in too much for this media. Imaging is a double burn ablation process (heat emulsion two times until it is blowing off the substrate) and 10 microns become less then 10. Assuming that small rasters dots are still on the media, copy process will wipe any singular dots (the substrate is matte); so, you will not have rasters on plate under 10 to 15 percent's (where the dots become in touch one with other); over this percent's the transition will be abrupt and unstable (I guess, I never try 10 microns on DITR).

The film making process in not so complicated, just put the film like any other plate and push one button (it is only one button on Trendsetter, you can not miss ). Setting media require attention, is done only one time, and this is my job.

In this particular case the customer have 20 microns second order FM screening (worm type) and the device is a Trendsetter Flexcell. I will send you more information later.

Regards,
Liviu

 

[dreko]

Hi Liviu,

Ok, I'm thinking 2nd order @ 20 microns is fine. I'm attaching a screen snapshot of a imagesetter film scan from fulton. Looks 2nd order to me, although, I thought initially it was 1st order.... Yes, please send the information when you can


thanks
A

 

[dreko]

Hi Gordon,

After looking at your thumbnails again, I think the fultone we have are both correct.

question:
1st order stochastic: dot size stays constant, more are added to fill density increases
2nd order stochastic: dot/worm size grows in size and scale, more are also added to fill density increases

Fultone stays constant in scale/size, just more are added to fill in density, yes?

thanks
A

 

[gordo]

Hi Gordon,

After looking at your thumbnails again, I think the fultone we have are both correct.

question:
1st order stochastic: dot size stays constant, more are added to fill density increases
2nd order stochastic: dot/worm size grows in size and scale, more are also added to fill density increases

Fultone stays constant in scale/size, just more are added to fill in density, yes?

thanks
A

Yes I think so too.

1st order stochastic: dot size stays constant, more are added to fill density increases. In theory yes. But as those same size dots get added they start to touch each other. When that happens (at around the 35% tone) then you get larger structures - i.e. halftone dots that are made of several pixels. See attached image.


2nd order stochastic: dot/worm size grows in size and scale, more are also added to fill density increases. Yes. First same size dots are added to increase density, then the dots start to grow instead forming "worm" like structures. The growth is controlled - depending on the design of the FM screen - in order to reduce visible graininess.

Full tone was a 2nd order stochastic screen where the dots were designed to grow primarily in one direction (axis) which formed wiggily looking lines. But the dots also grew in the other axis. So, to make darker tones the dots grew primarily in one direction while more dots were added and then the lines got fatter to make even darker tones.

Creo ended Fulltone when the bought Scitex in 2000 because Fulltone was not as good as Creo's Staccato. The main problem with Fulltone was that the dot structure was directional (the long wiggily worms). Halftone dots (of any kind AM/XM/FM) that are directional can exacerbate offset printing (which is also directional) issues such as slur and doubling.

Your best bet is to try and find the Kodak regional sales manager in the area that you are in. He/she may know if any of their customers are using Fulltone (or possibly Staccato) and are capable of outputting it to film. If that doesn't work you might also try an get that Kodak person to have your request posted on the Kodak Graphic User's forum (GUA Forums - Powered by vBulletin) where Kodak customers chin-wag about their systems.

best, gordo

 

[dreko]

Hi Gordon,

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. I do like the fact that Fultone is directional. For polymer intaglio, in the proper orientation, I find that it's actually beneficial. I realize the offset printing world has more gravitas in this area, but for my process... I think fultone performed wonderfully...

as for staccato.. I haven't tried this...
I'll keep looking for fultone and now staccato output.

thanks again for all your replies and time!
Andre

 

[Jimmy]

I work at a Prinergy shop in Portland, Oregon and we have the ability to image Staccato patterns to film on our Avantra.

Attached is a sample of what I can offer. This shows 10% and 40% in 10 micron.

Give me a call if I can help you.

Jim
Precision Digital Imaging
Professional Digital Imaging Services | Transform Your Work into Giclee' Prints, Options for Postcards, Flyers
503.542.4433