Proofing of offset on KM bizhub pro

umesh

Member
Hello,
I am trying to use our digital printer bizhub PRO C6501P with Fiery pro80-system 8.0 as an in house proofer, we have a Heidelberg CD LX machine of 28 X 40 inches.
I got an eyeone spectro with profilemaker pro, so i think i would be able to make the necessary profile.Thinking to use test chart ECI 2000 of A4 Size to be printed on offset machine.
I know this is not gonna be a simple adventure, so want to know if any one has tried any thing similar before..

Would appreciate if you can help me in understanding few basics,
1. Is the test chart correct or is there any thing better than ECI 2000, for offset profiling.
2. What care to be taken before and during printing of the test chart on offset. eg dot gain compensation while making a plate, opening of ink keys, density etc
3. Any specific care to be taken while creating profile through profilemaker.
4. Where exactly to use the profile created, in the BIZHUB - as a Simulation profile or as a destination profile.
5. Any significance of rendering indent and RGB source profile while printing a proof through the digital printer

Any other suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks and Regards,
Umesh
 
Last edited:

Kevin H

Active member
Hello,
I am trying to use our digital printer bizhub PRO C6501P with Fiery pro80-system 8.0 as an in house proofer, we have a Heidelberg CD LX machine of 28 X 40 inches.
I got an eyeone spectro with profilemaker pro, so i think i would be able to make the necessary profile.Thinking to use test chart ECI 2000 of A4 Size to be printed on offset machine.
I know this is not gonna be a simple adventure, so want to know if any one has tried any thing similar before..

Would appreciate if you can help me in understanding few basics,
1. Is the test chart correct or is there any thing better than ECI 2000, for offset profiling.
2. What care to be taken before and during printing of the test chart on offset. eg dot gain compensation while making a plate, opening of ink keys, density etc
3. Any specific care to be taken while creating profile through profilemaker.
4. Where exactly to use the profile created, in the BIZHUB - as a Simulation profile or as a destination profile.
5. Any significance of rendering indent and RGB source profile while printing a proof through the digital printer

Any other suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks and Regards,
Umesh
WOW! Soundds like you have rteally taken on a task here for yourself eh.
Actually it is not quite as complicated as it may seem.

1: YES. This is the chart that your software was designed to recognise and use.
2: Just do what you would normally do for any job on the press. You are looking to simulate a TYPICAL run on your press.
3: Follow the instructions and plan to do this with NO interuptions. You wil need around 1/2 hour or so.
4: SIMULATON. You are looking to simulate another device. The destination is for a specific STOCK.
5: Relative Colourmetric is the default/standard of the creation. This will make the colours relative to the whitepoint of the media. RGB!!!!!! convert your files to CMYK in Photoshop or just use the latest RGB Profile from EFI. You should do a SEPERATE test on the RGB workflow.

Depending on just how "accurate" you require your outputs will determine if you also need to make destination profiles based on different stock types. What you rreally need here is consistency. Even if your outputs are a little "warm" your pressmen will be aware as you will be handing them consistent outputs.

A final and VERY CRITICAL note is you will need to calibrate on a regualr basis. At least once a day, but depending on your environmental control (heat, humidity, etc.) you may even need to calibrate a few times a day as the conditions change.

Involve your Printer/Pressmen from the very beginning. Once they understand you want to give them a better product they should be more than ready to assist. They can be a great source of information to you.

Have Fun eh!
 

umesh

Member
Hi Kevin, thank you very much for your detailed reply, I think all my doubts have been cleared by it.

Only thing i want to know is regarding the DESTINATION profile.

Now i would be printing the test chart on offset using different papers, like coated, uncoated, glossy and matt. I am planning to make different profile for each paper, so i can use the particular profile as SIMULATION, while proofing for the corresponding paper on my digital machine.

So what am i suppose to use as the DESTINATION profile ?

If you have seen KM bizhub, then it has STOCK specific profile exactly as u said. I am not sure which one to use.

It would be great if you could shed some light on this part..

Thanks and Regards,
Umesh
 

Kevin H

Active member
Hi Kevin, thank you very much for your detailed reply, I think all my doubts have been cleared by it.

Only thing i want to know is regarding the DESTINATION profile.

Now i would be printing the test chart on offset using different papers, like coated, uncoated, glossy and matt. I am planning to make different profile for each paper, so i can use the particular profile as SIMULATION, while proofing for the corresponding paper on my digital machine.

So what am i suppose to use as the DESTINATION profile ?

If you have seen KM bizhub, then it has STOCK specific profile exactly as u said. I am not sure which one to use.

It would be great if you could shed some light on this part..

Thanks and Regards,
Umesh
The destination profile is to increase accuracy on a specific stock type.
The simulation is to simulate a specific process and then the destination alters the colour a final time depending on the type of stock.

A "paper simulation" is to simulate the whitepoint/stock colour on a different type of stock.
Confusing? sorta.....

A customer wishes to use the device as a proofer and wants to know what the files will look like on a greyish/newsprint stock, but they are runing it on a 28lb Hammermill.
Create the destination profile by using the same process basicly as the other. You will be asked what type of profile you are creating during the process.
this profile will give the better colour on that particular stock when selected.
It will also simulate the stock on a different stock when paper simulation is used.

The stock specific profiles are the base ones that come with the KM. You can have the device chose the correct one for you by selecting "Use Media defined profile".
this means it will choose the appropriate profile based on the selected settings in the media and image tabs.

Before getting into this head on, I would even look to see if you can find the standard ICC profiles and load them nto your KM. Calibrate fully and regularly and do some test. You will be pleasnatly surprised at the accuracy.
Really, you are looking for very close colour on a consistent basis. This is achieved with basic operations.
Even if the KM is a little "warm" your pressmen will know and compensate for this. But it MUST be the same everytime.
Taking on the custom profiles can be a near fulltime job.
Try it first, see what you get.
 
I

Ian Mackenzie

Guest
Efi cps

Efi cps

I would also recommend using EFI's Color Profiler Suite software.
It is the only profiling software that can extend gamut (in blacks) with toner devices.
You may need wider gamut on the KM to get a press match to offset.

EFI CPS is available from KM in the UK or from EFI.
we have all the training modules on our web site to tech you how to use it.

Chromaticity | Training and Services - C4
 

Louis Dery

Well-known member
I would also recommend using EFI's Color Profiler Suite software.
It is the only profiling software that can extend gamut (in blacks) with toner devices.
You may need wider gamut on the KM to get a press match to offset.

EFI CPS is available from KM in the UK or from EFI.
we have all the training modules on our web site to tech you how to use it.

Chromaticity | Training and Services - C4
Ian,

What do you mean by "extend gamut (in black)"?
There is no way to print darker black than what the printer (proofer) itself can do!??

Louis
 

Rotti

Member
EFI Fiery

EFI Fiery

Dear Umesh

Use EFI colorproof XF Fiery option and drive this Digital Printer to get the offset results. In the color Management use your ICC offset profile.

Regards

Rotti
 

Lukas Engqvist

Well-known member
Sorry to jump in but is it not advisable to target a regional standard? I would have taken my press to aim for FOGRA 39 and the KM to aim for FOGRA 39. That way you minimise the risk to doubble errrors and the press and the KM can be fine tuned individually.
 

mpavia

Member
true - it is best to be both aiming at the same standard - the issue comes into play when the press is not conforming to all the specs of the standard. An example is: Most standards (swop, gracol, fogra .....) get right down to specifying the required lab values for cmyk and also target specific screen values and whitepoint..... Simply by changing your ink supplier will put you out.

Now on the other hand, if you consistently keep your variables fixed and controled (humidity - ink supplier, plate supplier, imagesetter calibrated, blankets "fresh" or at least within your tolerance - now profile that ..... the proofer will more closely match that press because we know the profile represents something that that press is really capable of.
 

David Ingram

Active member
Sorry to object, BUT....

Sorry to object, BUT....

Toner on paper is not going to be anything more than a "pleasing" color match
for "MATCH" color, you should go with an epson stylus inkjet proofer
toner will never match the properties of ink, one lays down wet, one lays down dry
completeley different processes, we use a Matchprint Inkjet with our prinergy system.
Epson Stylus Pro 9800 using a GRACoL Profile, 720x720 D.P.I., on Matchprint CSM 235 Base
 
ISO standaards

ISO standaards

Hello,
I am trying to use our digital printer bizhub PRO C6501P with Fiery pro80-system 8.0 as an in house proofer, we have a Heidelberg CD LX machine of 28 X 40 inches.
I got an eyeone spectro with profilemaker pro, so i think i would be able to make the necessary profile.Thinking to use test chart ECI 2000 of A4 Size to be printed on offset machine.
I know this is not gonna be a simple adventure, so want to know if any one has tried any thing similar before..

Would appreciate if you can help me in understanding few basics,
1. Is the test chart correct or is there any thing better than ECI 2000, for offset profiling.
2. What care to be taken before and during printing of the test chart on offset. eg dot gain compensation while making a plate, opening of ink keys, density etc
3. Any specific care to be taken while creating profile through profilemaker.
4. Where exactly to use the profile created, in the BIZHUB - as a Simulation profile or as a destination profile.
5. Any significance of rendering indent and RGB source profile while printing a proof through the digital printer

Any other suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks and Regards,
Umesh
Dear Umesh

Did you know that there are a few systems Fogra Certified to do this?
As I am working at Océ and responsable for this part on international level I can tell you that not only the profiling part is crusial for this procedure but it first starts at the engine.
The engine as is has to be calibrated on the most best way.
When calibrating the controller you will get from e.g. 90% of the quality to 99% of the quality. But there are many settings that can ceep the engine stabel.
And Yes I have tested this. On the Océ version of the KM Bizhub Pro, a run of 120.000 SRA3 paper the max delta E was 3. But having to calibrate the engine when it was out of this E3. This enigine is capable of reaching the ISO 12647-2 and when using e.g. Colorproof XF from EFI even the proofing norm ISO 12647-7 norm.
In fact within this norm is mentioned that you should use ink. But yes it is toner.
ISO is working on a "'new"' standard the ISO 12647-8 to have a new standard for toner systems. But still is within the Offset standards.

Kind regards
Eric van der Kop
 

Lukas Engqvist

Well-known member
That one is wet and one is dry is irrelevant. You are measuring the result on paper. An Epson Stylus is just as much a "completeley different process", infact even more so since you are using a 6-8 colour on an inkjet.
With a TVI curve, and a good profile it is possible to get good results, especially if the you print with CMYK with a high GCR. (canned profiles like FOGRA 27 or SWOP have too much colour and are too dependant on CMY in neutrals to get good results) We have a client that has a KM Biszhub, and I helped them set it up.
The tricky part is finding out all instances the places color is managed. We do not proof on it, but client runns small editions (language versions) of print material.
When colour has been way off it has been a case of inconsistent PDF generation.
 

David Ingram

Active member
Still though...

Still though...

Sure it CAN, be used as a color proof, I used to run thermal wax CalComps and Dye Sublimation 3m Rainbows, in addition to doing over 15 years of analog proofing using Color Key, and 3m Matchprint, and Kodak Approval, Waterproof, Agfaproofs, etc.

Be Honest, NO ONE markets a toner device as a proofer!
for a CONTRACT PROOF, for a print run of say 50,000+ NO ONE is going to accept a toner based proof for this purpose. Pleasing color is all you are going to get.

Show me one major graphics retailer that sells any toner based product as a
CONTRACT PROOFING solution for press. They Dont, if they do, it is with the caveat that it is not MATCH COLOR.

Thank you! I've run thousands of high end proofs by hand and I know what I am talking about
 

mpavia

Member
Sure it CAN, be used as a color proof, I used to run thermal wax CalComps and Dye Sublimation 3m Rainbows, in addition to doing over 15 years of analog proofing using Color Key, and 3m Matchprint, and Kodak Approval, Waterproof, Agfaproofs, etc.

Be Honest, NO ONE markets a toner device as a proofer!
for a CONTRACT PROOF, for a print run of say 50,000+ NO ONE is going to accept a toner based proof for this purpose. Pleasing color is all you are going to get.

Show me one major graphics retailer that sells any toner based product as a
CONTRACT PROOFING solution for press. They Dont, if they do, it is with the caveat that it is not MATCH COLOR.

Thank you! I've run thousands of high end proofs by hand and I know what I am talking about
I think what you're saying is actually to the point - it's just marketing - digital devices (particularly the KM 6501) are absolutely capable of producing consistent prints that are indistinguishable from prints generated from a 4 colour offset process. We have many large trade printers in the Toronto area who run large "English" runs of 100,000 or more on 40" presses and do a "French" version run of 5,000 on the KM device - using the stardard profiles at that - and have results that would take a loop to tell apart.

As well that are a few major publishing companies that use the device strictly for proofing because according to the trade printer they use "its easier to match the KM device than it is to match to Kodak Proofer - the kodak match print is "too good". Mind you I think that the Kodak proofer they have is probably not setup correctly, but that's besides the point.

The main advantage to dedicated proofing systems is that they have a much higher gamut - able to reproduce many more pantones - so currently its the only route to creating proofs for 5 and 6+ colour jobs and achieving an accurate match, and that they tend to be more stable, requiring less operator intervention.

No one would buy a 6501 to run just proofs. Even at the low impression cost compared to the proofer - if you want to have it behave as a press, you need to run it as a press, which means a skilled operator, and running just proofs would not be cost effective - that's why no one markets toner devices as "proofers".

Now on the other hand if you need to do short runs that match the press on a low cost device - that's the way to go - and if you're doing that - why not proof your large runs as well?

I believe there are a few devices currently in the process of being "certified gracol" - but again this is just marketing - there is a huge cost associated with certification and the return is minimal if the market hasn't come around to the idea and willing to pay for the high level training required to first understand colour, and second to be able to create and manipulate icc profiles, and third to be willing to commit to using the device in a controlled environment.
 

Kevin H

Active member
Toner on paper is not going to be anything more than a "pleasing" color match
for "MATCH" color, you should go with an epson stylus inkjet proofer
toner will never match the properties of ink, one lays down wet, one lays down dry
completeley different processes, we use a Matchprint Inkjet with our prinergy system.
Epson Stylus Pro 9800 using a GRACoL Profile, 720x720 D.P.I., on Matchprint CSM 235 Base
An interesting statement.

Pleasing colour sells first of all.
As for proofing, sure we all would have some big fancy proofer that will NOT generate at productions speeds.
Unfortunately the devices also need to be run as a production device to truely be profitable.
I have many MANY customers who use a KM for this purpose and are VERY happy. None of them expect it to match the press exactly, or as well as the above mentioned device.
What they want is a close, consistent, reliable, FAST colour device that they can use for multiple reasons.
Plus, i need to add it is not really as difficult as it would seem. Some professional colour training, here at KM we call it "The Essentials of Colour".

i doubt if anyone is really trying to match the physical properties of another device, rather are trying to "simulate it" as close as their output device will allow.
Anyone who tries to do other than that is in line for a BIG disappointment.
 

David Ingram

Active member
"digital devices (particularly the KM 6501) are absolutely capable of producing consistent prints that are indistinguishable from prints generated from a 4 colour offset process."

Perhaps so, but, Heavy Solids, and photos, may be close color-wise, but "indistinguishable" is a bold statement, that would depend on the job wouldn't it? Simple, no bleed, no solid stuff MAY look CLOSE ENOUGH, but, fuzer oil, etc, DO make toner based output look different in general.. I'm having a hard time swallowing that "indistinguishable" ....In addition to proofing, Ive also run alot of digital copier systems like Canon CLC 1000, 40 PPm, etc Ricohs all with firey rips, etc. Simply not a MATCH color device, not sold as such, not marketed as such, making one so would be more expensive than a proofer
and thought it may be FAST, and a production machine, its NOT a PROOFER
 

mpavia

Member
There's no fuser oil in the KM devices - that's the first big step, second the rip software has evolved - as has colour management (version 4 icc I believe) and the total colour gamut of system has expanded sufficiently to encompass swop completely and approaching gracol significantly.

It's not hard, just complex, but it can be done.


"digital devices (particularly the KM 6501) are absolutely capable of producing consistent prints that are indistinguishable from prints generated from a 4 colour offset process."

Perhaps so, but, Heavy Solids, and photos, may be close color-wise, but "indistinguishable" is a bold statement, that would depend on the job wouldn't it? Simple, no bleed, no solid stuff MAY look CLOSE ENOUGH, but, fuzer oil, etc, DO make toner based output look different in general.. I'm having a hard time swallowing that "indistinguishable" ....In addition to proofing, Ive also run alot of digital copier systems like Canon CLC 1000, 40 PPm, etc Ricohs all with firey rips, etc. Simply not a MATCH color device, not sold as such, not marketed as such, making one so would be more expensive than a proofer
and thought it may be FAST, and a production machine, its NOT a PROOFER
 

Kevin H

Active member
"digital devices (particularly the KM 6501) are absolutely capable of producing consistent prints that are indistinguishable from prints generated from a 4 colour offset process."

Perhaps so, but, Heavy Solids, and photos, may be close color-wise, but "indistinguishable" is a bold statement, that would depend on the job wouldn't it? Simple, no bleed, no solid stuff MAY look CLOSE ENOUGH, but, fuzer oil, etc, DO make toner based output look different in general.. I'm having a hard time swallowing that "indistinguishable" ....In addition to proofing, Ive also run alot of digital copier systems like Canon CLC 1000, 40 PPm, etc Ricohs all with firey rips, etc. Simply not a MATCH color device, not sold as such, not marketed as such, making one so would be more expensive than a proofer
and thought it may be FAST, and a production machine, its NOT a PROOFER
WOW.
Many of these statements are quite inaccurate for sure.
Mr Pavia took care of most of it, but let ME address the no bleed comment. Do you run the ink off the sheet on your press or do you oversize the sheet and trim it afterwards?
Go figure, you can do the same on a KM 6501.
Fusure oil...lol KM has never used fuser oil.
CLC1000...self answering statement, NOT a proffing device, fuser oil
Richohs....LOL still not up to snuff, give em time they will catch up, possibly.

We have TWO C6500s, side by side running as a PROOFER for a very large publishing company. They are simulating a newsprint type stock AND a hig gloss stock, all on Hammermill 28lb plain paper.
The SAME PDF files are then sent to an off-site, about 100kms, printshop to be run. The C6500 outputs are used as colour proofs. The KEY here is we have TWO running side by side and the operators chose whicher one they want and get indenticle colour..... proofing device.

Mr Pavia is right on the money, it can be doen, it just takes soem skill.
 

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