Questions about Xerox C75/J75

[AP90]

Looking at purchasing either machine, but I'm afraid I might have a bit too much work for the machines. Im just not exactly sure how they calculate the volumes. Currently I would be looking at doing about 150-180k clicks a month. The recommended volume is 20-75k pages a month. I would strictly be running either 11x17 or 12x18 sheets. So I would be running about 80k sheets a month. Is the volume I have only about 5k over the recommended or am I about 80-100k over the recommended volume? Ive heard of people running these machines much more than the recommended but I know its probably not advisable. Also, the Duty cycle is 450k a month, so why is there a 375k difference between recommended and Duty cycle? Am I missing something here?

I really like the machine for the quality and price point of it. Im pretty sure I am going to be purchasing instead of leasing, and am strongly considering buying used from a 3rd party. How willing is xerox to put used machines under a service contract? I know most people lease but I'm not a fan of leasing anything gin general and also being locked in for the lease with Xerox.

Also, I would not be running very heavy stock (45 and 55 lb text, ect), so the PPM is rated at 39. The machines have auto-duplexing, so if I duplex will it still run at 39 ppm, or is it going to slow down to say 20 ppm?

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[kdw75]

Duplexing will roughly cut the speed in half. I would go with the C75. It should handle your volumes without any trouble, as ours was running 120K 13x19 clicks per month, for over a year, without any issues.

The increased cost of the J75 isn't going to benefit you much, since you are going to be running uncoated, standard weight papers.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Duplexing will roughly cut the speed in half. I would go with the C75. It should handle your volumes without any trouble, as ours was running 120K 13x19 clicks per month, for over a year, without any issues.

The increased cost of the J75 isn't going to benefit you much, since you are going to be running uncoated, standard weight papers.

Quoted for truth.

 

[hotrod1178]

Don't pay attention to duty cycle. For that volume, I would be hesitant to buy 3rd party. Xerox will require an inspection of some kind and might not guarantee service after you made the 3rd party purchase. If that happens, can you return the machine if Xerox won't service? That is quite a bit of volume regardless of a C or J....double the recommended. You also have to realize that it will require more service calls which could mean more down time. Can you afford that downtime for that amount of volume? (shrugs) Depending on what you paid for it, you might not want to own this machine after 3 or 4 years either. It will be wore out and you will be frustrated. If you lease from Xerox direct, you can get a new machine and you can get your click rate fixed for the length of the lease. You might get the device cheap from 3rd party, but your service will go up and up and up. Leasing is not evil if you are planning to upgrade technology every 3-5 years. Remember...service is key and with that volume, I would be more concerned with service than the price of the machine from a 3rd party seller. Buy direct and alleviate any service fears.

If you are not planning on running the heavier stocks, then stick with the C75. The J75 will give you more room to grow your business. The J75 will cut down on your turn around time immensely if you are running 110lb cover duplexed. You will love SIQA regardless if you go with a C or J.

However, 180k is a lot of volume. Don't be afraid to check out the Versant 2100 either. That machine is built for that volume.

Good luck!

Looking at purchasing either machine, but I'm afraid I might have a bit too much work for the machines. Im just not exactly sure how they calculate the volumes. Currently I would be looking at doing about 150-180k clicks a month. The recommended volume is 20-75k pages a month. I would strictly be running either 11x17 or 12x18 sheets. So I would be running about 80k sheets a month. Is the volume I have only about 5k over the recommended or am I about 80-100k over the recommended volume? Ive heard of people running these machines much more than the recommended but I know its probably not advisable. Also, the Duty cycle is 450k a month, so why is there a 375k difference between recommended and Duty cycle? Am I missing something here?

I really like the machine for the quality and price point of it. Im pretty sure I am going to be purchasing instead of leasing, and am strongly considering buying used from a 3rd party. How willing is xerox to put used machines under a service contract? I know most people lease but I'm not a fan of leasing anything gin general and also being locked in for the lease with Xerox.

Also, I would not be running very heavy stock (45 and 55 lb text, ect), so the PPM is rated at 39. The machines have auto-duplexing, so if I duplex will it still run at 39 ppm, or is it going to slow down to say 20 ppm?

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[AP90]

Don't pay attention to duty cycle. For that volume, I would be hesitant to buy 3rd party. Xerox will require an inspection of some kind and might not guarantee service after you made the 3rd party purchase. If that happens, can you return the machine if Xerox won't service? That is quite a bit of volume regardless of a C or J....double the recommended. You also have to realize that it will require more service calls which could mean more down time. Can you afford that downtime for that amount of volume? (shrugs) Depending on what you paid for it, you might not want to own this machine after 3 or 4 years either. It will be wore out and you will be frustrated. If you lease from Xerox direct, you can get a new machine and you can get your click rate fixed for the length of the lease. You might get the device cheap from 3rd party, but your service will go up and up and up. Leasing is not evil if you are planning to upgrade technology every 3-5 years. Remember...service is key and with that volume, I would be more concerned with service than the price of the machine from a 3rd party seller. Buy direct and alleviate any service fears.

If you are not planning on running the heavier stocks, then stick with the C75. The J75 will give you more room to grow your business. The J75 will cut down on your turn around time immensely if you are running 110lb cover duplexed. You will love SIQA regardless if you go with a C or J.

However, 180k is a lot of volume. Don't be afraid to check out the Versant 2100 either. That machine is built for that volume.

Good luck!

Thanks for your input. When you say don't worry about duty cycle, are you meaning a machine will never reach that or that it is just a number and a machine could be capable or more or less? I don't plan on using the machine for heavy stocks too much, probably just some business cards and smaller runs like that.

When I was saying 3rd party, I was talking about a refurbished machine. The company X-Digital based in California has refurbished machines at very reasonable prices and accessories that have been fully refurbished and are guaranteed to be able to go under Xerox contract. In fact, some of them even provide the click charge for a FSMA which are .049 color and .0099 B&W. They are a xerox certified and from what I have read are basically a dealer as they will negotiate with Xerox for you when you buy the machine. Has anyone dealt with this company?

And I understand that I may not want to own the machine in 3-4 years, but the ROI on it will be before then and it will be a machine that will work for our applications until it dies. Used is an easier way for us to enter the digital world with little risk. And if I can grow my business then it would be easier to get another machine vs. if I lease a new machine. Plus, I'm not big on leasing anything really, I would just as soon own it and it be mine. Any input from people who outright buy their machines would be appreciated.

 

[hotrod1178]

sds

sds

Duty cycle is just the industry trying to slap an apples to apples comparison between manufacturers and machines. It means roughly the amount of clicks between recommended service visits if all goes well. I don't put any stock in published duty cycle numbers. At that 180k volume, I would shoot for having service out there at least 1x per month.

Just do some simple math on the workflow....at 180k per month, you would need that machine to be running 19 pages per minute all day for 20 business days a month. That doesn't take into account any service calls or downtime from absent employees. Obviously, you will probably be working it after hours and on the weekends too.

If the refurb is Xerox-certified and there aren't any concerns with getting it on service, then go for it if the price is right. On the other hand, if your local bank is loaning you the money and you aren't simply paying cash for it, then there is really no difference between that or leasing directly from Xerox. Xerox would be able to offer an FMV or $1 out lease whereas most banks will loan at a $1 out only, which could mean a higher monthly payment. Xerox would be more apt to negotiate on a fixed click rate for the length of lease if you keep the paper with them. If you pay cash or borrow from your bank, you will not get that luxury and pay annual service increases. This is one of the benefits of leasing directly from Xerox on a new machine. Xerox doesn't report their leases to local banks either, which keeps your future borrowing power higher if you needed equipment down the road.

Just some thoughts...

Thanks for your input. When you say don't worry about duty cycle, are you meaning a machine will never reach that or that it is just a number and a machine could be capable or more or less? I don't plan on using the machine for heavy stocks too much, probably just some business cards and smaller runs like that.

When I was saying 3rd party, I was talking about a refurbished machine. The company X-Digital based in California has refurbished machines at very reasonable prices and accessories that have been fully refurbished and are guaranteed to be able to go under Xerox contract. In fact, some of them even provide the click charge for a FSMA which are .049 color and .0099 B&W. They are a xerox certified and from what I have read are basically a dealer as they will negotiate with Xerox for you when you buy the machine. Has anyone dealt with this company?

And I understand that I may not want to own the machine in 3-4 years, but the ROI on it will be before then and it will be a machine that will work for our applications until it dies. Used is an easier way for us to enter the digital world with little risk. And if I can grow my business then it would be easier to get another machine vs. if I lease a new machine. Plus, I'm not big on leasing anything really, I would just as soon own it and it be mine. Any input from people who outright buy their machines would be appreciated.

 

[A&BPat]

I have a C75 since March of 2013 they are very trouble free. We didn't see a service tech for the first 400,000 and the issue then was the Fiery not the C75. I would recommend the hicap feeder with your volumes.

 

[AP90]

I have a question about duplexing. If the machine will run SRA3 at 35 ppm, will duplexing cut that in half? Or will the auto duplexing keep it running at 35 ppm?

 

[wonderings]

We have a J75. It started out wonderful, but turned into a real headache after about 3 or 4 months. We cannot print on 14pt without any kind of mottle look in solids or gradients. We had no problems printing this when it was new and even have repeat jobs that we cannot do because they come out terrible now. Xerox is looking into it, they have had someone in going through the entire machine. Replaced a whole bunch of things inside, but still they are getting the mottle look. They are taking our stock to their office to try on one of their J75's. If they can do it on theirs, then they will just pick up ours and replace with a new one.

 

[hotrod1178]

What kind of DFE do you have? There are some known issues with Xerox's Freeflow that they are working through, so don't ignore the controller. Good luck! Also, are you getting any grief from Xerox about printing on weights bigger than 300gsm? They might not support you on anything larger than 300gsm.

We have a J75. It started out wonderful, but turned into a real headache after about 3 or 4 months. We cannot print on 14pt without any kind of mottle look in solids or gradients. We had no problems printing this when it was new and even have repeat jobs that we cannot do because they come out terrible now. Xerox is looking into it, they have had someone in going through the entire machine. Replaced a whole bunch of things inside, but still they are getting the mottle look. They are taking our stock to their office to try on one of their J75's. If they can do it on theirs, then they will just pick up ours and replace with a new one.

 

[hotrod1178]

The J75 is spec'd to autoduplex SRA3 sized paper coated or uncoated up to 300gsm through the bypass or OHCF. You will see a slow down with duplexing but you won't have to haul the job back to the feeder after one side is printed.

I have a question about duplexing. If the machine will run SRA3 at 35 ppm, will duplexing cut that in half? Or will the auto duplexing keep it running at 35 ppm?

 

[wonderings]

What kind of DFE do you have? There are some known issues with Xerox's Freeflow that they are working through, so don't ignore the controller. Good luck! Also, are you getting any grief from Xerox about printing on weights bigger than 300gsm? They might not support you on anything larger than 300gsm.

Running Fiery front end. It could be that it really cannot handle the 14pt, they assured us it would no problem though, that was part of the whole discussion when we started talking to xerox over a year before purchase. They are not giving us any grief on the stock, Xerox has been fantastic to deal with service wise. If it cannot work, we are going to look at another machine, most likely the versant as that is the next step up.

 

[hotrod1178]

Ok...the Versant would definitely solve your weight limitation since it supports 350gsm. It's a wonderful machine and you will certainly see an improvement in resolution not only in the engine but with the RIP processing too. Another big kicker with this machine is the smoother gradients available. It's an awfully big machine if your volume isn't there (>75k). Is a bulk of your work 14pt? If so, might be something to consider...if the 6 digit price tag doesn't deter you.

Running Fiery front end. It could be that it really cannot handle the 14pt, the assured us it would no problem though, that was part of the whole discussion when we started talking to xerox over a year before purchase. They are not giving us any grief on the stock, Xerox has been fantastic to deal with service wise. If it cannot work, we are going to look at another machine, most likely the versant as that is the next step up.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

We have a J75. It started out wonderful, but turned into a real headache after about 3 or 4 months. We cannot print on 14pt without any kind of mottle look in solids or gradients. We had no problems printing this when it was new and even have repeat jobs that we cannot do because they come out terrible now. Xerox is looking into it, they have had someone in going through the entire machine. Replaced a whole bunch of things inside, but still they are getting the mottle look. They are taking our stock to their office to try on one of their J75's. If they can do it on theirs, then they will just pick up ours and replace with a new one.

I am having this same issue running Mohawk Color Copy Ultra Gloss 14 PT/300 GSM. I am printing duplex and simplex and still seeing a huge "mottling" issue on 100% K and other colors. Ghosting of images on heavy and light stocks is prevalent. I haven't called my tech yet to see what is going on, but I have also tried adjusting the image transfer settings - due to another issue, which it fixed - but the mottling is worsened. Has anyone seen issues with something that might be called trail edge flip? Where the machine misses adhering the toner to the trailing edge of oversized heavy stocks?

I asked our tech about it and he said that he "thought that issue would have been fixed ages ago". I think I'll examine the issue again in the next week and if it persists, I'll open up a thread regarding this issue.

Also, if you're having issues with gradients, try running at 600 DPI and see what happens. The machine images 600x600 DPI @ 8 bit, but 1200x1200 DPI @ 1 bit, so gradients will be much smoother at 600 DPI. Not sure why our Fiery can't print to the full 2400 DPI? Gradients come out looking so damned smooth at 600 DPI.

 

[AP90]

The J75 is spec'd to autoduplex SRA3 sized paper coated or uncoated up to 300gsm through the bypass or OHCF. You will see a slow down with duplexing but you won't have to haul the job back to the feeder after one side is printed.

When you say we will see a slow down when duplexing, are you talking about 25%, 50% or more slow down? Sorry but i just want to get it nailed down to roughly how many SRA3 ppm it will duplex. Thanks!

 

[wonderings]

When you say we will see a slow down when duplexing, are you talking about 25%, 50% or more slow down? Sorry but i just want to get it nailed down to roughly how many SRA3 ppm it will duplex. Thanks!

I do not have any of the documents, but I believe that is all laid out by Xerox. They should have a spec sheet or something like that, that shows the actual speed, 1 sided and duplexing of the various sizes and stocks.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

I do not have any of the documents, but I believe that is all laid out by Xerox. They should have a spec sheet or something like that, that shows the actual speed, 1 sided and duplexing of the various sizes and stocks.

J75 gets me any weight SRA3 stock at about 15-17 ppm. Hope this helps.

 

[Kunnajar]

http://www.xerox.com/digital-printing/latest/J75SS-03U.pdf
Duplex is half of the speed.

 

[Craig]

Duplex is always half the speed, unless you are talking about impressions then they will be the same, just half the number of sheets coming out the finisher.

 

[AP90]

I was wondering if anyone here has outright bought a C75? We're looking at that option and just wondering if we are getting a good deal? They're offering a bustled fiery, oversized trays, and pro finisher. Just wanting to see what others got price wise and click wise? Even if you haven't bought one but leased, please give your opinion on what a good price would be. Also, if you don't want to post it feel free to PM me. Thanks!