Spot color conversion Indesign vs Acrobat Pro

[kseldridge1]

We use a workflow for digital printing that includes exporting a pdf from Indesign(CS3,4,5). For color management, we convert to destination using the device profile. This converts everything including spot colors but it retains the spot channel in the output pdf. This all great. I am trying to set up an Acrobat preflight droplet workflow which includes convert to color. I can not find the setting to emulate how Indesign outputs and converts. I can convert spot color to destination but it does not retain them as spot colors. It all goes cmyk. Somehow Indesign can convert spot color to destination value but keep spot channel and Acrobat pro convert to color can not keep spot channel after conversion. Does this seem right?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I can't reproduce this behaviour.

Both InDesign 5 and Acrobat Pro 9 keep the spot colour as a spot colour or they convert it to a process and remove the spot.


Stephen Marsh

 

[kseldridge1]

That is not what is happening here and why I ask the question. If in Indesign CS3,4,5, you place a cmyk image and create a spot to go with it, Export PDF and change the 'output' color settings to 'convert to destination', pick a printer profile, and do not embed profile, you will get a pdf where the image AND the retained spot have converted colors. This is not the same result I get using Acrobat Pro 9,X 'Convert colors' fixup in a preflight profile. Nothing I do will hold the spot color after converting to destination. I must be missing something. We are installing a device that prints a spot white. I need to be able to convert everything and hold spots without having to do it in swatches pallet on every document.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I need to be able to convert everything and hold spots without having to do it in swatches pallet on every document.

Ah, now I see! I was using the InDesign and Acrobat feature that converts All Spots to Process.

We have a WT7900, being driven by Kodak Proofing Software for Matchprint Inkjet (v5.2). This has an optional selective map to process feature that one can use on individual seps, rather than using the all spots to process function. One could choose to manually map all spots to process except the white ink (or not to convert any spots to process).

So, with this in mind - does your RIP have a selective spot to process mapping feature?

Off hand, I am not sure about performing selective mapping to process in Adobe software when exporting a CMYK + spot colour PDF from InDesign or when converting colours in Acrobat Pro 9. The InDesign swatches obviously have this ability for vector objects, however it would appear that you are after a method in Acrobat...


Stephen Marsh

 

[kseldridge1]

The files will go through ONYX for a digital printer and i do have the ability to use the spot color table. ONYX would need a media profile to map spot color to a table but we keep that RIP configured in a basic mode so the operators do not have to be concerned with the right choices when ripping but also we do not set profiles in the RIP because I find i get the most 'expected' results if i let Adobe do the conversions. Even spots come out like what you see on screen, for the most part. WYSIWYG. If we have a critical customer we dial the spot in nice and close to swatch or something. We create a color converted file for each media on each device out of Indesign. Great way to keep color consistent no matter what you print on. Just need a good media profile. I do not like multiple RIPs doing color conversions.

So anyway. I wonder if there is a disconnect between apps or if missed a setting. I want to convert colors including spot to a media profile but retain spot color plates. I will keep searching.

 

[Al Ferrari]

" We are installing a device that prints a spot white."

Have you contacted the device manufacturer about the problem? I would start there.

Al

 

[Correct Color]

The device manufacturer will send him right to Onyx, guaranteed.

I'm a little lost here, however. In just what "basic mode" are you running Onyx?

Also, where do you get the media profiles you're using?


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[kseldridge1]

We use Profile maker to make the media profiles. These play nice in Adobe for softproofing (the profiles made with ONYX would not soft proof in Adobe). 'Basic mode' Im calling it is... Onyx is set not to color manage. Users open color converted pdf's and print All Profiles Off.

 

[Correct Color]

Well...while that does work, I can tell you I've implemented hundreds of Onyx workflows and I have never, ever set one up that way.

It's just a much more cumbersome workflow. (You've got at least duplicate sets of files you've got to contend with for however long you keep them, for instance.) Also depending on creation color spaces, there's a real issue with converting spot colors (other than white) into the final machine space in Adobe products that you're setting yourself up for by doing it this way.

As far as making ICC profiles goes--and I'm assuming you actually know there's a difference in Onyx terminology between a media profile and an ICC profile--you can drop any third party ICC profile into an Onyx media profile. (You're right that Onyx ICC profiles are a nuisance to get to be able to use to soft proof--although it can be done--not to mention that the Onyx ICC profile-making engine is a little short of being the best one out there.)

Once that's done, you can soft proof through that profile just as you're doing now.

Beyond that, in order to print a spot color in Onyx, you do have to be using a media profile that has a spot color defined, and that spot color has to match the defined spot color in the file. You can, however, do this with "All Profiles Off" you just have to select the proper media. (By the way, although this 'can' be done, I strongly recommend to all my clients that they never do it.)

Note too that for the most part at this time, most of the printers who are using white have their own workflows and their own techniques. For that reason, they're typically generating the white printer--spot in particular--themselves, in Photoshop or Illustrator. And since they're creating this step in house from large-format friendly applications, there isn't a lot of reason to bother with a pdf.

Of course, what you're describing sounds like a flood fill white, and if that's the case, you don't even need to create it in the file. You can create the condition in Onyx and then create a Quickset for that condition.

Finally, unless this is a t-shirt machine I'll assume this is large format you're working with, and I'll just toss in that if it is, you might want to consider some other originating application than Indesign.

What I'm suggesting is that it might be a good time to examine your overall workflow, rather than just looking for a solution in Acrobat.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[kseldridge1]

First we are dealing with Fuji Acuity's here. If you are not familiar with the device it is an OEM of the Oce GT250,350. The are UV flatbed printers. The lights they use to cure lose power over time. If you want consistant color over a months time you need to recalibrate often. I have found that the recalibration tool in Onyx does not get it done as well as simply creating a new profile. Yes I know all about ink restrictions and linearizations, but if you know the device, you would have to go all the way through a media setup to accomodate the light power. We can get away with a universal media for paper or plastics or whatever. Since we do that I do not what to manage profile for every media when they are changing so often. We make profile right into an aliased colorsync folder and they are available to all adobe apps for output or proofing. If you ask me it is a great workflow that each prepress person can use and manage from any mac.

Second, We have used Onyx since version6. I know and have explored all of the scenario's you talk about. All of them using Onyx color tools, have left me hanging and scratching my head why it doesn't match a known good proof. Also handling transparencies is terrible in Onyx. Adobe already has the transparency figured out and can convert and output correctly. The last thing I need is an operator at night pulling up a job and having color or transparency problems. It wasn't until I let Adobe do the conversion that I got very good 'visual matches' and reliable transparency handling. I know as far as file creation, it is not ideal, we have to convert for each device and media, but the result are outstanding. That is why I want an automator/Acrobat preflight Droplet hotfolder to do conversions on all three devices from one file drop.

Third, like other things, everyone has a workflow. Some are better than others for different reasons. But my workflow is not the question. The question is..

Why is a color conversion out of Adobe Indesign vs. Acrobat different when it comes to spot colors. Indesign converts color and holds the spot in the pdf where as Acrobat converts spot color but does not retain the spot color in pdf.

 

[Correct Color]

Well, not to get into a pissing contest, but I will tell you that I'm very, very familiar with that machine. I profile Fujis and their Oce twins on a pretty regular basis. And I'll also tell you that I absolutely guarantee you I can solve every issue you've described as the reasons you've gone to the workflow you use...with one possible exception.

Honestly, with all the problems inherent in an early-binding workflow, I've just never considered using one in order to work around transparency issues. There is a setting in Onyx that can eliminate just about all transparency issues in every version of Onyx, but of course you have to use ICC profiles in Onyx to use it. Also, there's a supposed fix in 10.1 but I'm not really sure how well it works. Other than that, Caldera does have an option of using the Adobe PDF Print Engine as its RIP engine and that does eliminate just about all transparency issues.

As far as re-calibrating vs. re-profiling, it's the same regardless. I's just a question of how far you want to back up. You're absolutely right that if you just re-linearize, you usually will not solve an issue. The reason of course is that the profile is built on top of the existing linearization. It expects whatever flaws that linearization has. If the machine has drifted, and you just re-profile, depending on several factors you'll get back to reasonably neutral with the profile; however, the linearization now does not match the actual machine, and the profile will have to compensate for the discrepancy. I suspect this is the reason you're having to re-profile so often.

My own experience with these machines is that they're remarkably stable. I've revisited several of them after many months--in one case two years--and seen virtually no drift at all.

But regardless, if all you do is re-profile, it's just as easy to drop the new profile into the Onyx Media as it is to drop it into Colorsync.

Finally...

Third, like other things, everyone has a workflow. Some are better than others for different reasons. But my workflow is not the question. The question is..

Why is a color conversion out of Adobe Indesign vs. Acrobat different when it comes to spot colors. Indesign converts color and holds the spot in the pdf where as Acrobat converts spot color but does not retain the spot color in pdf.

Well I dunno. You might want to ask Adobe. But if they don't have a satisfactory answer, then your workflow might indeed become the question.

Best of luck,

Mike

 

[kseldridge1]

We push our machines pretty hard. The light should be changed at 500hrs. We always go over 1000Hrs. $. Maybe thats why I see such a shift. In side of 3 weeks I will see a solid color shift. There is a lot of ways to skin a workflow. Thanks for all the opinions. Im always looking for a better way. Meanwhile whats up with Adobe conversions and handling of spot colors. Why would Indesign be different from Acrobat. I guess I will need to find an Adobe forum.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Meanwhile whats up with Adobe conversions and handling of spot colors. Why would Indesign be different from Acrobat. I guess I will need to find an Adobe forum.

A simple (but not facetious) reply is that InDesign is different to Acrobat. A native .indd file is different to .pdf and the colour conversion options are different.

In post #3 you mention adding a CMYK image in InDesign and creating a spot colour in InDesign, then exporting a PDF with the "convert to destination" colour conversion option selecting an output profile. The spot is not converted, only the RGB or CMYK elements are, as spot colours are handled by a separate, different colour conversion option (ink manager button, all spots to process checkbox).

One can get the same behaviour in Acrobat when using the Advanced/Print Production/Convert Colours command.

However, that is not what you are doing. You are using a preflight fixup... And that fixup would have the option automatically included of converting the spot to process.

So, if you are going to use a preflight fixup and wish to retain spots, make sure that the fixup does not convert spots. This may mean that you have to custom edit the preflight profile so that a RGB and or CMYK conversion to CMYK takes place - while spots are not converted to process.


Sincerely,

Stephen Marsh

 

[kseldridge1]

Indesign export to pdf using the 'Convert to Destination' as opposed to 'convert to destination (preserve numbers)', does change the color of the spot. It converts it to the same cmyk values I will get when Onyx sees the spot color after the conversion. It also retains the spot channel. If you hold the curser over the spot in Onyx after the conversion , you will get the same values as if you converted all spot to process. Now in a Acrobat preflight profile setup to convert to destination, All Objects(Except Spot), you have to add a second conversion for spot color to convert. This makes they cmyk info. Try it in Indesign. Convert to destination to any cmyk profile. Open the resulting pdf and see that the spot has changed colors and is also still a spot. Now try to recreate that in Acrobat. You should be able to but I can not find it.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Indesign export to pdf using the 'Convert to Destination' as opposed to 'convert to destination (preserve numbers)', does change the color of the spot. It converts it to the same cmyk values I will get when Onyx sees the spot color after the conversion. It also retains the spot channel.

I don't see this behaviour, the spot colour retains the original CMYK build values in the PDF as they were in InDesign. The spot is of course still a spot as the convert spots to process in the ink manager was not invoked. The CMYK values of the CMYK objects have indeed changed as the conversion was not "safe CMYK" preserve colour numbers as the destination profile was different to the document CMYK. All of this is as expected.

If you hold the curser over the spot in Onyx after the conversion , you will get the same values as if you converted all spot to process. Now in a Acrobat preflight profile setup to convert to destination, All Objects(Except Spot), you have to add a second conversion for spot color to convert. This makes they cmyk info. Try it in Indesign. Convert to destination to any cmyk profile. Open the resulting pdf and see that the spot has changed colors and is also still a spot. Now try to recreate that in Acrobat. You should be able to but I can not find it.

As mentioned, I don't see this behaviour. I also can't comment on Onyx.

Does anybody else wish to have a go with InDesign, Acrobat Pro and or Onyx? I think that I have taken this as far as I can with the info provided (unless I am missing something).

Good luck!


Stephen Marsh

 

[kseldridge1]

The result you got is what I get in acrobat preflight fixup but not Indesign.
If I place a cmyk image in a new indesign document,
make a few boxes filled with various pms spot colors,
Export to pdf with
color setting set to 'Convert to Destination',
pick 'Japan newspaper',
'do not include profile',
I get a pdf with spot colors plates that have a different color build than original build in Indesign.
They are spot plates in separations so I do not see build in Indesign or Acrobat, so I use the mac digital color meter to check rgb values and they are definitely different in appearance and build. Are we really seeing difference in output here? I am baffled. We do this on all of our macs since i believe cs3. Could you please try again. I don't want to put you out anymore but there has to be an explanation.

 

[Correct Color]

They are spot plates in separations so I do not see build in Indesign or Acrobat, so I use the mac digital color meter to check rgb values and they are definitely different in appearance and build. Are we really seeing difference in output here? I am baffled.

Well, here's the thing: They don't have a build. They're spots.

It doesn't matter what RGB values you get out of them with mac digital color picker. What you're seeing on the screen is just a representation. The images themselves are solid blocks of whatever spot colors you picked.

If you were sending these jobs to print litho and intended the spots to stay as spots, they'd always stay that way, but of course you're not. At some point these spots do have to be converted into the color space of your printer.

Or not...You seem to have a couple of concerns here. The first is spot colors such as PMS colors that you want to convert, and the second is spot colors such as white that you do not want to convert; you can't print white with CMYK.

Does Onyx do that?

Absolutely.

As far as spots you don't want to convert, you have to create a media in Onyx that has your spot colors that you do not want to convert named and identified, then you have to create a spot color with the same name in your designing application.

For colors you do want to convert, the best method is to use a late-binding workflow. Onyx has a PMS library built into it. You just send the files with the spots still as spots, and let the RIP do the work.

Believe me, I have clients across the country running the very same machines as yours running this workflow. It's without question the easiest and best way to resolve all your issues.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[leonardr]

I'm lost on the InDesign vs. Acrobat issue

I'm lost on the InDesign vs. Acrobat issue

Acrobat and InDesign uses the same color conversion engine, however, each offers a different set of options since they are used at different points in a workflow and thus there are different considerations.

Both offer the option to "leave spot colors alone" when converting as well as offering complex spot converions via the Ink Manager.

What do you believe is missing?

 

[kseldridge1]

The original question is, why can I not recreate, in Acrobat preflight fixups for color conversion, the same result that I get in Indesign pdf export, color settings 'Convert to destination', do not include profiles. Indesign converts and holds the spot but Acrobat will not. I simply wanted to create a automator hotfolder workflow that would launch a preflight droplet and convert files to different printers. There seems to be a disconnect. If someone could achieve this, that would be great.

As to the facts about Onyx and how it operates, they are known. It seems all of these large format rips are similar. I've had my hands on Colorgate and its all the same principle. You can choose to use a spot color table or not. If you use it you will need to use LAB values (in Onyx) to achieve custom matches. If not, the RIP uses the cmyk values of that spot color. These must be determined by the profile in which it was converted to. The same cmyk values you would get if you turned All Spot to Process in Ink Manager out of Indesign. At least thats what I observe in Onyx when taking a color reading in preflight. It gives cmyk values. You can see the spots change colors when applying different input profiles in Indesign.

So if a customer is the type that expect to see, in print, the color they see in Illustrator or Indesign, Convert to Destination, seems top be the best method. A lot of designers pull from a spot color table (Solid Coated) to achieve the color they want on screen. The default color setting in Adobe are General Purpose I believe and that uses SWOPv2. So they expect WYSIWYG. I know that Illustrator uses legacy rgb value for spot colors where as Photoshop uses LAB values. In some colors the two are very different. I believe if you use the color table in ONYX it will use LAB values. This is no good for client who wants what is on their screen.

Of course there is the customer who picked their spot from a PMS book (which vary from book to book). Now we must match on printer. You may get lucky using the color table in a RIP but chances are you will need to create a color chart for the customer to pick from. You can get the cymy value in ONYX but you can not use those value in a spot color in the lookup table. Only LAB is accepted. Hmm. You can 'color replace' but that is inefficient and it does not like transparencies.The only fix I see for this is ONYX should let us be able to set a spot colors in the table by CMYK values also. I think Colorgate does let you.

So for all these reasons and more we have to be adaptable in our workflow. It does not seem to be on size fits all. Our boss says the customer gets what they want and the show of determination usually brings the customer back.

 

[Correct Color]

Well, actually, the color space that makes all this work is Lab.

I've never set up spot colors in Colorgate and I don't have a copy here so I can't say for certain, but I'd be very surprised if it had a function to set up spot colors as CMYK values. The reason being that then you'd have to add as well what color space those CMYK values were in, and then of course the RIP would correlate whatever that color was...to its Lab value. It could of course be done, but I think most RIP manufacturers just assume that if you're in there setting up spot colors to begin with, you can probably manage to get that Lab value for yourself.

Lab is what's known as a "vision" or "profile connection" space. It's not device dependent and that's the reason for its use.

Before I bow out I'll just add that if I had to pick what I consider after parts now of five decades in the business of putting ink onto media, the single most overused canard in the inudstry, it's that "PMS books don't match."

Don't match compared to what? On more than one occasion, I've come across old PMS books in a drawer or in the attic or somewhere, in one case well over ten years old, compared them to brand new books, and found them to--for all intents and purposes--match.

They certainly match a lot more closely than a random assortment of unprofiled monitors. Hell, for that matter, they even match more closely than a usual random assortment of profiled monitors.

Here's a pretty definitive recap of the whole issue of printing PMS colors in large and grand format printing. Maybe you'll find it of interest.

Correct Color Commentary


Mike Adams
Correct Color