starting a small print shop, which printer?

[nitro912gr]

Hello, I'm about to start a small design office and I want to have the ability to do all the small scale production inhouse, aside from the other hardware that more or less I know what I need, I have no idea about the printer.

Where I work now we have an aged KM 450p and a KM c5500 and the guy who sell/repair them told me to get a KM C224 which, as I have seen in person have more than acceptable quality for printing brochures, business cards and other material that demand good quality, and I believe it's low monthly capacity is OK for the work I believe I will print in house (for higher volumes it appears to be better to send them for offset printing).

Now the problem is that while I trust this guy, I have no idea what the competition can offer. I attended an exhibition last year but the staff in the other manufacturer's kiosks have little to no idea on the per page cost, they where more like "hey look at this print, nice colors eh?", which can't help me at all.

So the question is:
Is there anything better and/or more affordable than the KM C224, in terms of buy and use?

That thing is giving a 1200X1200 resolution which I can't see anything in it's price range to be able to match that.

What I need to do? Low volume color printing with emphasis in quality, I don't need photographic quality, but I need good quality.

(As for the service part the city I plan to open is close to the third major city in Greece and most of the manufacturers have service department's there)

Sorry if I sound confused, I am confused.

 

[Possumgal]

It wouldn't hurt to get a demonstration and quotes from other companies like Xerox. Letting a salesman know that you are also talking to other companies can tend to get you a better deal from one. Look at what's out there. If you can, visit existing print shops with digital equipment to see how they work in real world situations and ask the operators what problems they've had.

 

[realrdp]

One educated opinion..........

One educated opinion..........

We run three higher end Bizhubs for the smaller jobs, along with two iGen 4 Machines, a Nuvera 120 and a Canon DreamLabo 5000. I've been in this business for 42 years and haven't too many machines better than the Xerox equipment offered today. Your best bet is to contact your Xerox Rep and I am sure they will fill you in on what would best fit your needs and budget.

Hello, I'm about to start a small design office and I want to have the ability to do all the small scale production inhouse, aside from the other hardware that more or less I know what I need, I have no idea about the printer.

Where I work now we have an aged KM 450p and a KM c5500 and the guy who sell/repair them told me to get a KM C224 which, as I have seen in person have more than acceptable quality for printing brochures, business cards and other material that demand good quality, and I believe it's low monthly capacity is OK for the work I believe I will print in house (for higher volumes it appears to be better to send them for offset printing).

Now the problem is that while I trust this guy, I have no idea what the competition can offer. I attended an exhibition last year but the staff in the other manufacturer's kiosks have little to no idea on the per page cost, they where more like "hey look at this print, nice colors eh?", which can't help me at all.

So the question is:
Is there anything better and/or more affordable than the KM C224, in terms of buy and use?

That thing is giving a 1200X1200 resolution which I can't see anything in it's price range to be able to match that.

What I need to do? Low volume color printing with emphasis in quality, I don't need photographic quality, but I need good quality.

(As for the service part the city I plan to open is close to the third major city in Greece and most of the manufacturers have service department's there)

Sorry if I sound confused, I am confused.

 

[nitro912gr]

Thanks I will check with xerox as well

 

[JustinB]

If you want high quality, short run, and don't mind it being slow, the Canon ImagePRESS C1+II is a great option. It only runs around 7 13"x19" Heavy stock impressions per minute, but the image quality is FANTASTIC. The last I checked, paper registration is only accurate to 2mm (kind of a wide margin of error) but if you can live with that, lots of people use them as proofing machines because the image quality is so great.

Just a thought.

 

[Fatboysmart]

Depends on what your business is... for short runs like business cards, invitations etc. we have two Xante Illumina's which work great. They have their quirks sometimes, but so does every other printer.

 

[nitro912gr]

but how about the cost to run those machines?

I checked with xerox and found a nice one, the phaser 7500 which is cheap at 1600 euros, but every toner is costing 400+ for just about 18000 passes... while at the same time konica minolta have the toners for more passes at 40 to 80 euros. Which seems to justify in the long run the more expensive C224e

 

[Craig]

NO NO NO NO... are you talking about a desktop fast plastic or low volume production? The two are not the same!!! We have both, (not low volume but production) our Illumina is ONLY for envelopes, anything that needs to register front/back is on the Xerox or KM. You'll pull your hair out if you plan on cutting and folding with a desktop "printer".

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Let me offer this to think about nitro912gr - in the first 1-5? years of your new (untested) business venture, can you justify the large capital outlay for new machinery (capital outlay, lease, loan etc)? I hope that you have sat down and made a proper business plan.

Would it not make more sense to outsource the work to a trade printer in the early days when constant and consistent income may be unknown - until you find that you truly need in-house production, rather than just thinking that you need in-house production? Sure, you will not make as much profit per job with outsourced work, however you can still make a OK profit using a trade only printer. Where you can make good money is on the creative/design side of things if you are in the right location or have the right clients. The setup and ongoing costs and the profit that you can make in the creative side is easier to manage than the print and finishing side.

The above was written with a “stable” economy in mind and a thriving graphic arts industry, does this sound like Greece (no offence intended, I would ask the same of any country)?


EDIT: A similar topic thread is ongoing here:

http://printplanet.com/forums/digital-printing-discussion/33391-adding-printing-services-our-company


Stephen Marsh

 

[nitro912gr]

NO NO NO NO... are you talking about a desktop fast plastic or low volume production? The two are not the same!!! We have both, (not low volume but production) our Illumina is ONLY for envelopes, anything that needs to register front/back is on the Xerox or KM. You'll pull your hair out if you plan on cutting and folding with a desktop "printer".

I'm not sure in which category the above mentioned machines fall. I want something cheap to buy, with relatively low operating cost for small volumes, like say 1000 business cards or a few hundred A5 flyuers.
I just don't want to sacrifice quality so I guess I need something with 1200X1200 dpi and 5bit color and above.

Let me offer this to think about nitro912gr - in the first 1-5? years of your new (untested) business venture, can you justify the large capital outlay for new machinery (capital outlay, lease, loan etc)? I hope that you have sat down and made a proper business plan.

Would it not make more sense to outsource the work to a trade printer in the early days when constant and consistent income may be unknown - until you find that you truly need in-house production, rather than just thinking that you need in-house production? Sure, you will not make as much profit per job with outsourced work, however you can still make a OK profit using a trade only printer. Where you can make good money is on the creative/design side of things if you are in the right location or have the right clients. The setup and ongoing costs and the profit that you can make in the creative side is easier to manage than the print and finishing side.

The above was written with a “stable” economy in mind and a thriving graphic arts industry, does this sound like Greece (no offence intended, I would ask the same of any country)?


EDIT: A similar topic thread is ongoing here:

http://printplanet.com/forums/digital-printing-discussion/33391-adding-printing-services-our-company


Stephen Marsh

I though about that but nobody is offering competitive pricing in the area I want to open, so I have to pay a good amount of money in courier services to get the prints from Athens or Patras which are bigger cities and offer way lower prices, which is not a problem for big jobs, but with the small ones the margins are way slighter.
Also I expect most of my printing jobs to be small volumes, because the financial status in Greece many people will just pay to buy what the need at the moment, even if in the long run will cost more, and I calculated that it just doesn't worth paying a local printer to do it or ordering from major cities.

As a side note I love to do the production, it feel so much like what you designed is being crafted in something you can touch and feel, but I definitely will not risk my business if I can't buy and operate the printing in house.

 

[Craig]

There is more to "quality" than 1200x1200 dpi. You have a lot to learn grasshopper! That's why we are here, so listen to some of the advice. Don't get hung up on "dpi" that in itself does not equate "quality". You need to look at a machine that will register the image from sheet to sheet with some accuracy. This will become apparent when you try to gut the business cards or fold the brochure. A 1200x1200 dpi printer does not make you a "print shop" there is so much more. I would suggest you go visit other shops and see what is necessary to do just the basics. You will find the investment is quite substantial.

 

[nitro912gr]

There is more to "quality" than 1200x1200 dpi. You have a lot to learn grasshopper! That's why we are here, so listen to some of the advice. Don't get hung up on "dpi" that in itself does not equate "quality". You need to look at a machine that will register the image from sheet to sheet with some accuracy. This will become apparent when you try to gut the business cards or fold the brochure. A 1200x1200 dpi printer does not make you a "print shop" there is so much more. I would suggest you go visit other shops and see what is necessary to do just the basics. You will find the investment is quite substantial.

you are right of course, to make it to the "printshop" I have in mind to get a hydravlic paper cutter (I have found a used polar which can cut 100x70cm papers for a low price) which doesn't have all the safety of a new one but I consider myself experienced with those machines and I feel somewhat safe to use it (I cut paper in a similar old polar for the last 2 years in my current job), a small lamination press and other equipment for the after printing works, but I have settled on what to buy on those so I ask only for the printer.

As for the resolution this is what I don't know my poor mind register this as a "the higher the better" alongside the color depth (which if I recall correctly is at 5bit for the C224), for the rest you mention since I have tested those KM in person and found that they have good accuracy, I trust the KM in that part.

So far however it seems that KM gives the best cost/quality ratio, do you guys thing there is another machine to consider?

 

[johntheventer]

In my country (South Africa - Similar economy to Brazil - Developing 3rd World) our print shop (40 years old) has been quiet for a long time - two years or more - and we offer walking while you wait service from solvent signage to production printing to colour copies to lamination as well as graphic design and 3d Architectural Stuff - As well as sound and video recording and editing - still its getting quieter by the day… I did a two year stunt on my own - just freelancing and was amazed at how much I could sell my design skills and creativity for!! There are so many printers, digital and offset in our area alone that to compete is becoming very difficult - but still, good proper design, pre-press friendly files etc etc are hard to come by - and worth a lot.

So maybe out sourcing is not a bad idea - in fact - Im thinking of working out some discount deals with printer partners - and just giving the artwork to the client on a disc, they can go have the head ache band pay the printer - all I need to do is design properly and maintain my relationship with the printer … when you get machines your overheads balloon out of control quickly - downtime costs, uptime costs, staff costs, packaging, delivery, insurance etc etc etc we all know this stuff.

It might be different in your country - perhaps there are not many print providers, in which case you could be sitting on a gold mine!!

 

[johntheventer]

In my country (South Africa - Similar economy to Brazil - Developing 3rd World) our print shop (40 years old) has been quiet for a long time - two years or more - and we offer walking while you wait service from solvent signage to production printing to colour copies to lamination as well as graphic design and 3d Architectural Stuff - As well as sound and video recording and editing - still its getting quieter by the day… I did a two year stunt on my own - just freelancing and was amazed at how much I could sell my design skills and creativity for!! There are so many printers, digital and offset in our area alone that to compete is becoming very difficult - but still, good proper design, pre-press friendly files etc etc are hard to come by - and worth a lot.

So maybe out sourcing is not a bad idea - in fact - Im thinking of working out some discount deals with printer partners - and just giving the artwork to the client on a disc, they can go have the head ache band pay the printer - all I need to do is design properly and maintain my relationship with the printer … when you get machines your overheads balloon out of control quickly - downtime costs, uptime costs, staff costs, packaging, delivery, insurance etc etc etc we all know this stuff.

It might be different in your country - perhaps there are not many print providers, in which case you could be sitting on a gold mine!!

 

[nitro912gr]

well the thing is that it is hard in Greece to sell design, people don't understand what you do and it is easier to sell your design with the print, I can cast the design cost in the printing cost without the client complaining, if I sell the design alone the client will feel it cost him more, even if the combined cost will stay the same.

Anyway I do consider to start without any printers because I offer web services as well, but if I could secure some funding (there are some financial programs from EU to help new business, or I can try to get a loan from a bank) I will get some equipment.

Thanks for your help everyone, just one last question, what do you think about the HP Color LaserJet CP5225DN?