The same CMYK color in text and line art but very different on print

[igor]

Hi all, this is my first post here. This seems like a really great community and I hope someone would be able to help me with my problem.

I got prints from local digital print shop with colored text too dark by orders of magnitude. The weird thing is that line art (shapes) with exactly the same CMYK color values look perfect. Also the outlined text looks perfectly fine - the text was automatically outlined where covered by transparent image.

So line art, outlined text and raster images printed perfectly fine, while the text was absolutely too dark - blue became almost black. I then tried sending to printer one page of text covered with transparent image and that printed perfectly. Printer still insists that the problem is on my side in the way how I export. I use licensed InDesign CS6 with "high quality print" profile and PDF standard PDF/X3-2003, so all standard settings. All images are CMYK and all color values are CMYK - confirmed with preflight. Output intent profile is Fogra 39 which the print shop is using.

In the end printer exported all pages as JPGs and printed that - now the colors are fine but the text of course looks awful - aliased.

I can't find absolutely nothing wrong when checking with flattener and output preview in InDesign. Only clue I got was when using Output preview in Adobe Acrobat - when I select show "Line art" every outlined text shown was printed properly, when I select "Show text" every object displayed was of wrong color.

Thanks in advance for any insight on this matter.

Cheers, Igor

 

[gordo]

Is it possible that the culprit is simultaneous contrast?
Contrast effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've had customers complain that text was a different color than a large flat area of color using the same cmyk screen tint builds - the cause for this visual effect was simultaneous contrast.

Best, gordo

 

[igor]

Hi gordo,

thanks for your reply. But that doesn't seem to be the problem in my case. I am talking about title with 61pt size and shapes as thick as the outline of that text - so basically similar shapes but in print colors came out very different . One other thing - in one place the text was partly covered with transparent image and covered part of text was correct color and the other was not. So lower half of the letters ok, upper too dark - this basically eliminates the contrast effect as a problem. I even attached the scan of that text. The part covered with transparent image has nice pretty accurate HUE of blue, upper part is completely off and very dark.

This happens also when text is completely standalone and not overlapping with any other object on page.

Best, Igor

 

[CHM]

Can you share the original file, or part of that file with us?

 

[igor]

Hi CHM.
Yes sure. Attached is the PDF I sent to printer to troubleshoot the problem. Of course he only replied that there is a problem with my export settings, but he had no idea what it could be.

I hope PDF will give you some clues. Only one text on this page printed properly - third one from the top.

Thanks!

Best, Igor

 

[Colorblind]

The only way to really help you is to actually post the very same PDF file that caused the problem. If that original PDF is built the exact same way as your "printing_problem.pdf" then I don't think the PDF is the problem. It rips perfect here.

 

[igor]

Thanks a lot Colorblind! Yes this PDF is built exactly the same as the original one (100 pages catalog). Basically first entry is copied from that catalog. I sent this PDF to the printer for testing and he said the problem was the same. The other thing is that this same thing was printed on offset 3 years ago and colors matched perfectly. I really don't know what else I can do to fix this problem.

Thanks again!

Best, Igor

 

[Colorblind]

Then the problem is on the printer's side IMO. That being said, it's always better to ask your printer what PDF flavour he can deal with (PDF/X1a, PDF/X3...) since you have no control on his equipment/rip/preflight procedures...

 

[igor]

He said PDF/X3 is OK, so I did what he said. He basically has no real requirements as his machine is pretty much new and should chew through anything. The problem is that he claims I am the only customer of his with such problems.

Thanks for your help and insight Colorblind!

Igor

 

[Eric van der Kop]

Rip or engine setting used by the printer

Rip or engine setting used by the printer

Hi Igor,

What configuration is your printer using? I know that rip's and print engine can use different screens for different items on the page. In combinatie with the resolution used on the rip, this can give these results.

If different screens are used they also have to be calibrated both. This seems to be "'forgotten"' now and then.

Kind regards
Eric

 

[igor]

Hi Eric,

yes, your suggestion seems to be very possible. But I couldn't find any information if his machine CANON IMAGEPRESS C6010 uses this kind of technology. I did ask him if we can meet for troubleshooting session to try out all combinations of settings to see if anything helps, I will ask him about this then.

Thanks a lot!

Igor

 

[Eric van der Kop]

Hi Igor,

I can tell you the Canon Imagepress C6010 does have this feature.
First advice is to print on 600 dpi and not on 1200 dpi.

Kind regards

 

[igor]

Wow, thanks Eric. I will let the printer know about this.

Best regards, Igor

 

[Stephen Marsh]

As this issue only appears with live text/fonts, another "option" is to supply PDF files with all fonts outlined to paths (however much I hate having to suggest this it could be a short term work around).

Stephen Marsh

 

[igor]

Yeah Stephen, that would work too, but I too hate such solutions while the real problem is still there.

Thanks.

Igor

 

[WishIWasScotty]

Yep!

Yep!

Then the problem is on the printer's side IMO. That being said, it's always better to ask your printer what PDF flavour he can deal with (PDF/X1a, PDF/X3...) since you have no control on his equipment/rip/preflight procedures...

Don't save things as "High Quality Print" pdf format (at least not for final output). if you're exporting, it is usually best to use PDF X/3. Every time I have saved anything with layers or transparencies in something else then sent it to our Oce digital printer it has come out wrong! I had the same issue as the original poster once with a business card. I was sent a pdf in a format that wasn't X/3, it was supposed to be all the same color red both text and logo, but when printed the copy was three shades too dark. Acrobat output preview was showing exact same CMYK on both images though. I have only had this particular issue with digital outputs.

 

[igor]

Hi WishIWasScotty,

if you read my first post you will see that I basically did save as PDF/X3, so transparency was flattened. I did choose "High Quality Print" profile, but then before exporting I selected PDF/X3 which means that it was exported as PDF/X3. Well in the end I sent the printer PDF in almost all possible combinations (X3, X4, PDF 1.3, PDF 1.4, PDF 1.7,...) and all had the same problem, so it seems that PDF standard and version didn't cause problem.

But yeah, High Quality Print profile can cause problems, but that's not the case here.

Igor

 

[ssutton503]

After seeing your PDFF I'm not sure how this could be the answer but I will throw it out there anyway. Could the attributes on the text be set to Overprint? Perhaps when the text is "in front" of the transparency it overprints and gets darker.

 

[pacart]

This happens at our shop sometimes, it is a digital rip issue and your printer should have caught it and never let you see it. We use the Fiery System 8 Release 2 on our KM6501. The only sure fire way to make this go away on my end is to check the "Simulate Overprint" box in the output section of the print dialogue, this works for me 100% of the time.

This is for me when I am printing from Indesign CS6 to the Fiery.

 

[BarbWPP]

Adobe has been pretty clear all along, that, in InDesign, text should always, one way or another, end up IN FRONT of any item using transparency. This keeps it from getting flattened with the image, or being involved in any flattening (however you want to look at it).

Some rips handle it pretty well even when the text is behind transparency, but others will have issues with it.

It sounds as if there may be more going on here than that, but it does seem to have contributed to it. If the blue was still a spot color, that could also be a factor, but you are clear that it all is cmyk. Unless the spot color option was checked on, even if it is still defined as cmyk, not from a color book?