We put a man on the moon but can't make an ink for Digital Duplicators that dry?

[ondemandbindery]

The question is as simple as that. Why not? How come? What is the hold up? Where am I missing the picture? Are manufacturers afraid to correct this problem in fear that they would not make truck loads of money off of service calls? Just curious as to how many Vendors that sell these machines will see this.

Why do I type this? Well, I have been working on a project for the past 4 months put in front of me by a packaging distribution company and I resolved every problem except this. My next step will be venturing into the Flexographic market but that was never of interest to me. So to the Standards, Ricohs, and others who manufacture these machines I just want some input. And don't use the substrate as an excuse. I have done some Beta testing with UV inks so when the image is properly applied with a different type of printing, it will dry like concrete, wo't rub off, and looks abslutely acceptable.

Thanks for your time and I offer all input,

John Weaver
On Demand Bindery, Ltd.

 

[Craig]

John, my guess is the ink needs to stay open inside the machine to keep things from getting "clogged". If the UV ink you are referring to is like what we use on the press, it would never work in a duplicator. That stuff skins over in the can in a few hours, it dries hard as a rock. Could you imagine what you would have to go through cleaning out a duplicator each time you used it? It kinda defeats the purpose, might as well get a press.

 

[BillJ]

Even though the technology has been updated, they are still just mimeograph machines. As Craig stated, the ink has to stay open for much longer (weeks or more) than offset. The ink has little or no dryer in it and dries only by absorbsion so it is only good for uncoated stocks. Even better quality bonds sometimes don't work well. Back in the old time AB Dick days, they sold special mimeo paper that was a heavier stock that was very absorbent.

The manufacturers probably could come up with some sort of drying system but it would drastically increase the cost of the unit. I doubt that the manufacturers are spending a lot of time on this.

 

[ondemandbindery]

I totally agree that UV would become a disaster. Standard tried it. The packaging industry gets their panties in a wad real quick when ink does not dry. I have no interest in a conventional press and this substrate would go nowhere in sheetfed. I am really just seeking an explanation really. I will probably move forward with a flexo option but the thought of having the ease of file manipulating on these duplicators is what has made me so stubborn to seeking a resolution.

 

[Craig]

What about a conveyor on the output side with an IR dryer, think that would help?

 

[ondemandbindery]

We have tried just about everything. The RIP took it to the next level because I could manipulate the files and scale back the coverage. As for Drying after printing, I have sheets that were printed from a whizbang 2010 Duplo with the latest and great from back in September and it never dried. Even with a thick vellum substrate you can rub it off. As for the manufacturers not wanting to spend the time resolving this and whether it would be worth their time, look at some of the previous post about these machines. This is a major problem. We tried fan, IR, UV lights, putting the product in heat tunnels for extended periods to even catching paper on fire with a heat gun. It never dries.

 

[BillJ]

The target for these model is schools, churches, non profits, etc.. These users are not trying to do anything exotic and are more concerned with cost. Print shops that have them know their limitations and would move any work to other systems where drying would be an issue. Since the part of the market that would pay for these enhancements is small, the manufacturers don't spend a lot on this. Since the early 90's when the digital duplicator came back, the technology hasn't really changed much.

 

[overscan]

There is actually a UV conversion of the ricoh duplicator made by a company called SeriPrint I seem to recall that it was even sold by ricoh in the USA a few years ago.

 

[ondemandbindery]

There is actually a UV conversion of the ricoh duplicator made by a company called SeriPrint I seem to recall that it was even sold by ricoh in the USA a few years ago.

Thanks. This is the unit that Standard claimed they made which they pulled the plug on. Sales people can be so full of crap they end up swimming in it. Anyhoo, I understand the intentions of these machines. It is also one of the best manufacturing devices I have been around. I will continue to seek a resolution. It is great that members are responding. I have sent an inquiry to Seriprinter. Maybe someone will be able to explain to me the exact problems. Thanks for all the replys.

 

[msaeger]

I know Ricoh quit selling the Seriprint stuff, don't know it's still being made or nut just that Ricoh quit selling it.

 

[overscan]

Still being made in the UK as far as I'm aware. Caslon are selling it as a their high print system for thermography HighPrint Digital Thermography System Caslon Ltd. There's a UV varnishing system also made by seriprint Dry Print which is looks like its the love child of a ricoh duplicator and a folding machine

I came across seriprint first at ipex in 2006 where their engineer showed me all sorts of interesting stuff including a few pull from a 4 colour macine with masters created at 2400dpi x 600dpi. Also had examples of metalic ink which showed promise but didn't have quite enough coverage/density.

 

[ondemandbindery]

Still being made in the UK as far as I'm aware. Caslon are selling it as a their high print system for thermography HighPrint Digital Thermography System Caslon Ltd. There's a UV varnishing system also made by seriprint Dry Print which is looks like its the love child of a ricoh duplicator and a folding machine

I came across seriprint first at ipex in 2006 where their engineer showed me all sorts of interesting stuff including a few pull from a 4 colour macine with masters created at 2400dpi x 600dpi. Also had examples of metalic ink which showed promise but didn't have quite enough coverage/density.

Thanks for chiming in! I talked to Seriprint today and what you have wrote is absolutely correct. They are not supported by any of the big Digital Daddy's in the USA but that does not mean this is not a possibility. I spent quite a while with one of the owners on the phone today. They know their systems and up front anyway they may have a solution for me.

Thank you,
John Weaver

 

[overscan]

Is the rubbish drying possibly a duplo specific problem. I know that both riso and ricoh have changed their ink over time to improve the drying speed. The riso 3770 that we had about 15 years ago was terrible for drying... but actually some large social stationery companies used this to their advantage for thermography. Our current ricoh is actually pretty good in comparison. We use it quite a bit for carbonless sets, budget leaflets and envelopes.

 

[ondemandbindery]

Is the rubbish drying possibly a duplo specific problem. I know that both riso and ricoh have changed their ink over time to improve the drying speed. The riso 3770 that we had about 15 years ago was terrible for drying... but actually some large social stationery companies used this to their advantage for thermography. Our current ricoh is actually pretty good in comparison. We use it quite a bit for carbonless sets, budget leaflets and envelopes.

For my application the ink has to be dry with no rub off period. It definitely takes a different mindset for using these things and you have to target a specific market. I just get fascinated with simplistic equipment (kiss theory). There is a place for technology and robust equipment for sure but for my application dumb down is fine. The best performance I have seen out of the inks so far was from a Standard line. VanSon has an ink also and I have samples coming to try but it still won't dry I am sure.

 

[overscan]

Yes, I suppose that although they're much better than they were, even the ricoh and riso inks will never completely dry. Inherent in the design as the ink has to stay open and not clog the machine up.

 

[Pinkus]

Dryprint

Dryprint

Hi
I am the project manager for Dryprint Ltd (new name for Seriprint)
If any one requires info they can email me :

[email protected]
phone 01264357357
Dry Print

We still make the machines, along with the ink and spare parts

Many thanks

Steve

 

[Keith]

Hi
I am the project manager for Dryprint Ltd (new name for Seriprint)
If any one requires info they can email me :

[email protected]
phone 01264357357
Dry Print

We still make the machines, along with the ink and spare parts

Many thanks

Steve

That looks awesome! Could you do full color with two passes?

 

[ondemandbindery]

Hi
I am the project manager for Dryprint Ltd (new name for Seriprint)
If any one requires info they can email me :

[email protected]
phone 01264357357
Dry Print

We still make the machines, along with the ink and spare parts

Many thanks

Steve

Great. Are you telling me that Seriprint which sells this UV system for the duplicator is also Dryprint Ltd. and if so what is your depth of knowledge with the UV drying system with the Seri Drums?

Thank you,
John Weaver

 

[overscan]

They are one and the same. I thought that dryprint was just the brand name for their UV varnisher. I didn't realise they'd changed the name of the whole company.

 

[ondemandbindery]

I was able to get in contact with someone who was very involved with Seriprint in the mid 2000's. He had positive and negative comments on this process. My interest is very strong but with the company being across the water for me and nobody supporting this system in the states it makes me very cautious as to the accountability of this system. Since we have a rep on the board now, this is a good place for me to ask specific questions about Seriprint. When I see a dialogue starting with the rep, I will ask away.

Thanks everyone,
John Weaver