What printer should I buy: iGen4 / Nexpress S2500 / Indigo 3500

[Dave Lyons]

I have an iGen3/110, but unfortunately it cannot print the flat screen tints, halftones, and duotones without artifacts. So I have the opportunity to choose between installing a new Nexpress S2500, and iGen4, or Indigo 3500.

I have received samples from all 3 devices and all look very good. My question to this forum is Color Consistency: Xerox has come out and stated that the iGen4 will match the very first sheet to the last. However, I have not heard anything from Kodak (Nexpress) or HP (Indigo).

Thanks for any light you can shed on this

Dave

 

[Craig]

I do not have any of the machines you are looking at, but I will say from the information I have gathered the Indigo will produce some excellent prints if it is properly maintained. I understand that it does require a lot of maintenance though. If I were making a decision between the Nexpress and the iGen it would be very hard indeed. I like the 5th color unit of the Nexpress, and the clear toner, that's a major plus for me. But the automation in the iGen 4 is pretty cool too.

 

[RGPW17100]

Indigo is a variable data machine. If your looking for a digital press and do not plan to run mainly variable then Indigo is probably not for you. Click charges are very high and you are very limited on substrates you can print on most of which are pretty costly. Keeping color consistent from sheet to sheet on longer runs can be an issue. Climate conditions must be watched as well and keeping up with maintenance. As far as I am concerned there is not better quality digital machine then the Indigo but it dont come cheap.

 

[John Roberds]

If you are looking at production printers you should spend a little time with Xeikon. Their new 1200 dpi LED technology is the best in the business. They don't have the name recognition of the other three but their performance is on a par and they have a number of different machines to choose from. We just installed our 1200 dpi machine and the image quality is great. Worth a look, particularly if you have difficult images to output.

John Roberds

 

[X33]

I think that if you have samples from all these major digital presses in a table, it would be hard to figure out which one was printed on what ... quality is very good on all of them

you may want to think more about service and support, technology, maintenance and uptime ...

 

[mmeister55]

But that would be if all the samples were printed in CMYK. However I think you will see a difference between a 4 color, 5 color, and a 7 color sample. If the full capabilities of the equipment are used the difference in the final printed product becomes more evident.

 

[Whygen]

We have had Igen 3 and Nexpress 2100 - photographic detail and quality was superior on the Nexpress, general commercial quality was Igen - Nexpress costing model hugely unreliable and Igen just hugely unreliable.
Quality is best on Indigo - higher running costs - need volume and right market.....

 

[Craig]

Just a question Whygen, did I read on another thread that you are looking at getting 2 KM6500's? If you had enough volume to support an iGen and a Nexpress, why would you get such light weight devices? 6500's/6501's could never survive that type of punishment for any length of time.

 

[random]

If you are looking at the above spec machines your not going to be looking at a c6500.

My best c6500 runs 100k+ a month so two would be 200k a month with redundancy Craig. Considering your only running 70k a month http://printplanet.com/forums/digit.../15604-konica-minolta-6500-thoughts#post95709 maybe you should get one.

Just because there isn't KM in the title doesn't mean Im not going to find you bagging my product you toe rag.

 

[lfelton]

Just a question Whygen, did I read on another thread that you are looking at getting 2 KM6500's? If you had enough volume to support an iGen and a Nexpress, why would you get such light weight devices? 6500's/6501's could never survive that type of punishment for any length of time.

I think it's because Wygen can do math

 

[Craig]

Maybe the problems with the iGen and Nexpress are due to poor operator maintenance. Far too many folks think these machines are like a 6500 that only need an operator to change toner/waste toner. However they do require much more work to keep the print quality up to specs.

Random, I am lost, who is only running 70k/month? If that is correct an iGen/Nexpress/Indigo would be like killing a fly with a sledge hammer, therefore based on their substrates a 6500 would be right up their alley.

Ifelton, if I owned an iGen and took about 10 steps back to replace it with 6500's than that tells me I either lost the volume I once had, or I only run that volume on 28lb text or I listened to the sales monkey who said my volume would support an iGen. With an iGen you have far more options regarding substrates, even the sheet sizes between the 2 are huge. It's not Apples to Apples, more like Apples to Corn.

 

[mmeister55]

Craig and Everybody: The originator of this thread (Dave Lyons) and I are co-workers. Both working on this same project together. That said...I had the opportunity to test this very print job on a KM6500 yesterday. It was actually the Oce CS650 with the Fiery RIP, but I believe that it's the same as a KM6500.

Here's what I encountered as issues with the 650:

I need to match PMS 293 blue on this print job. It appears that this is outside the gamut of the CS 650. Even when using the spot-on features of the Fiery I could not tweak the PMS293 cmyk values enough to get the 293 to really 'pop' like the actual Pantone color does. The CS650 trap of the 293 was just too dull. Even after removing all the yellow and black it was still too dull (removing Mag didn't help either). Perhaps the issue was in the ICC output profile setup of the Fiery, but I couldn't figure out how to fix it (although I did try using different output profiles).

Also, the halftones that the CS650 output were a little 'mottled' looking. Not very smooth. I believe that if I could have figured out a way to reduce the LPI of the output it might have looked a little better. It appears that the fiery is using something like a 200 line screen, too high I think, and I couldn't see a way to lower it.

Any thoughts on whether or not PMS 293 is outside the KM6500 gamut, or how to get smoother halftones and screen tints?

 

[lfelton]

Sorry, I don't know about the Pantone matching.

Regarding the mottling, I strongly suggest that you insist that the machine you look at is a 6501, not a 6500 and that it has either the 304+ or the 305 RIP. These make a BIG difference to the output you can achieve. Finally - and without knowing what RIP you are using, this is just a shot in the dark - you should check your screening type. If it's set to anything except line1, (especially dot1) then try changing it to line1. We've found that makes a big difference for some jobs. Hope that helps.

 

[mmeister55]

Thanks for the feedback. We did try the Line 1 screen (and dot 1 dot 2 and line 2), but it didn't seem to make much difference in the mottled effect of the halftones. Perhaps I should have fooled more with the 'halftone simulation' feature.

I would definitely look at the 6501 if I thought that it was a good candidate, but so far I think it might not be just due to the experience I had with the 6500. Hopefully someone can tell me I'm wrong and that the 6501 is the ticket.

Is the 304+ and the 305 RIP a Fiery or Creo RIP?

 

[Craig]

mmeister55,
I grabbed my Pantone Bridge and PMS 293 will not convert well to CMYK. It does get the dull, muddy look you were describing.

Regarding the iGen 3 you have, is it under a maintenance contract with Xerox? If so is it performing up the the CED? I do not have an iGen, but I understand from those that do, you need to perform quite a bit of maintenance to keep it running at its peak. I just don't understand the train of though going from an iGen to a KM/OCE6500, it like going from a Masaerati to a Camaro, not even in the same league. Why such a giant step backwards?

 

[mmeister55]

Craig you make good points and here are my responses:

Our iGen3 does a good job of handling the print jobs that we need it to handle. we run it at around 400,000 impressions/month and our volume is growing.

The reason we are looking at the KM6500 is because we have one particular project which requires printing very high quality haltones, duotones, flat tints, and text. The volume for this particular job is low: only about 100,000 impressions/mo. However, our iGen3 cannot produce the high quality screens that the job requires.

So we are looking at adding a machine just for this one monthly print project. All our other work will continue on the iGen3. It's more attractive to put in a cheap KM6500/01 than an expensive iGen4, Nexpress, or Indigo. However it looks like only those expensive devices have the gamut to hit the PMS293 and have excellent screening.

I hope someone can prove me wrong about the KM6500 though!

 

[random]

I would try at work but we only have a c6500. Maybe you need to hang out for the High Chroma version which has a wider gamut.

 

[mmeister55]

I'd never heard of the high chroma toner until you mentioned it. It sounds promising, but would have to arrive pretty quickly to address my needs.

I contacted both my Oce and Konica reps about this and they are looking into it. I'll let you know if they have anything germane to say on this.

 

[Craig]

So we are looking at adding a machine just for this one monthly print project.

Gotchya, I thought you were replacing the iGen with the 6500

 

[JaimeZ]

Well, one things for sure, I can get 293 to print really really well on my ABdick 8820, Ryobi 3302 and Heidelberg GTO, on just about any stock. But I imagine that's not a solution.