Xerox 8000 too expensive? While Canon 7000 seems right.

[JaimeZ]

A local digital printer lost a major client and is now reeling badly. They have Xerox 8000 on lease for $8,000 a month. Is this too much.

Another local traditional offset printer picked up a Canon 7000 at $3,100 a month. This seems much better.

What is the major difference between the two?

Please post only on these two machines. Thank you.

 

[Josh]

Canon is 70ppm Xerox is 80ppm.

8k p/m seems steep though! We were looking at about £2k p/m for a Xerox 7000.

 

[Craig]

Also the Xerox lease will include a number of clicks in the lease payment, Canon usually does not. (at least they didn't when I was comparing the 8000AP vs 7000VP) $8,000.00 seems high, he may have had a buy-out of another machine involved in the financing as well.

My lease payment is just under $7,000.00 with 30,000 clicks each month. I also had a buy-out of a Canon product structured in the financing.

Xerox will no doubt be more expensive, they have more options to offer. For instance you can get the Xerox branded Free Form, Fiery or Creo front end, Canon has Fiery or Fiery. They are very close as far as productivity and bells and whistles for finishing. The Xerox 8000 series has been on the market much longer though.

 

[JaimeZ]

OK, which is better Xerox 8000 or Canon 7000

OK, which is better Xerox 8000 or Canon 7000

Assuming both machines are have similar configurations, which is better?

Now, which has better finishing capabilities to add on?

 

[Creative311]

A shop we'll be using to help with our digital print on thicker stocks and personalized newsletters has just purchased an imagePRESS C7000 with three-knife trimming for full-bleed saddle-stitched output. We're excited about this because we've had issues in getting digitally printed saddle-stitched brochures and newsletters trimmed properly if they're stitched on the device and not offline. We like the integrity for the variable done with the stitching in-line, and hope this finishing is like the samples we saw. Very nice.

 

[smatros]

Creative let me know how it goes. I heard that C7000 has some issues with front / back duplex registration and paper jams, is that true? What format / size of saddle stitched brochures you intend to do with it? What paper stock will you use?

 

[Creative311]

The shop is getting the Canon installed next week - I can't comment on the registration issues but can say that the quality we've seen so far is fantastic - the finish looks offset and the screening does a great job on small knock-out text on photo or solid backgrounds. The lack of fuser oil and the smooth finish on coated stocks looks great. Hopefully they can back-up without too much variance.

We plan on printing full-bleed letter size brochures with 10 or 12 pt. covers and 80 lbs. gloss book guts.

By the way - have you seen the short-run magazine publishing site from HP called MagCloud? It looks nice. We'd like to sell similar work for marketing collateral and newsletters, but no $$$ yet for web-to-print - thanks for your suggestion for Zeta.

 

[Craig]

The problem with the inline saddle stitcher is you can only run the jobs 1 out. I opted for off line and run the 5-1/2 x 8-1/2 2 up to reduce the number of clicks (my 12x18 = 1 click per side).

Regarding which machine is better, that's based on opinion. My opinion is the DC8000AP is better. It has been in production the longest and has a proven track record vs the Canon 7000VP. Oil vs no Oil to me is a non issue, if it were then other production devices ie, NexPress and iGen would not use it. The other thing Xerox has over Canon is service. Xerox service tech's. work for Xerox not a dealer who may or may not have been trained properly.

 

[JaimeZ]

Thanks Craig,

Can one UV coat sheets that come off the Xerox?

I know that the off The Canon you can.

I'm getting into the Headshot niche; most of the orders are 8x10 of 5x7 under 200 and they all want them UV coated.

 

[Creative311]

The majority of our brochures and newsletters are trimmed to letter size - probably 90%. Any time we can get 2-up or multiple up we'll go offline of course for lower rates from where we send the job.

The big worry with us is we have variable data within the newsletter and no matter how good the bindery is there's going to be waste and with in-line finishing we'll eliminate a lot of QC work for us. Not all, but a lot of time will be saved.

The Xerox 8000 produces nice quality - we've used shops with the 8000 and have been happy with the work. Craig's right about the service - Xerox does a nice job, and if you're looking at dealer service you should get references. Direct is much better.

Two jobs we've done on the 8000 with heavy coverage we've had to wait a day before getting the UV applied - the shops says it adheres better that way. It pushed us back a day but not a big deal.

 

[smatros]

By the way - have you seen the short-run magazine publishing site from HP called MagCloud? It looks nice. We'd like to sell similar work for marketing collateral and newsletters, but no $$$ yet for web-to-print - thanks for your suggestion for Zeta.

Nice site, never seen it. Good idea though, may do stg similar for our markets.
We are quite satisfied for now with Zeta, also the staff is pretty responsive and very cooperative. Plan on developing another image template library for use in EU market only, so if anyone is interested to use it for US we may share / exchange / sell it.

 

[Craig]

I have not had any requests for UV coating, but I talked to others with the 8000 who mention the wait a day or two before UV coating.

 

[X33]

I've seen people do lamination and UV on the DC8000AP output; but not sure how they do it though.

On lamination, I've seen some GBC equipment.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Two jobs we've done on the 8000 with heavy coverage we've had to wait a day before getting the UV applied - the shops says it adheres better that way. It pushed us back a day but not a big deal.

That doesn't seam right there are UV coatings that are optimized to go down onto toner printed products. We are doing it inline or near-line with many different manufacturers toner presses without waiting.

 

[Creative311]

The shop we used has a Xerox 8000 and says the UV supplies they use are a specific mix to the Xerox products. Apparently each brand of digital press has a mix or formula that works best with their toner makeup. We were told that for the heavy toner coverage job we had the fuser oil could make the UV not adhere properly and that we'd get better results if we waited a day. We did and it came out fine - we were glad we didn't have a deadline.

We've also done jobs with an Indigo and Canon imagePRESS with the same job and didn't have to wait.

 

[Color Copier REP 18 years]

Jaimez,

The Canon is the better choice hands down in terms of quality. I see they are having registration and toner issues whcih are typical with a new product. Having been employed at Canon direct in Gardena, CA when they launched the C7000 I understand the pricing strategy, service strategy, marketing strategy, management strategy and there current issues. Want to know more?

 

[Craig]

Jaimez,

The Canon is the better choice hands down in terms of quality. I see they are having registration and toner issues whcih are typical with a new product. Having been employed at Canon direct in Gardena, CA when they launched the C7000 I understand the pricing strategy, service strategy, marketing strategy, management strategy and there current issues. Want to know more?

Hands down the better choice is only relative to the owners needs. I needed a production press with a proven track record (DC8000 engine has been out for much longer and has several improvements leading up to the AP), as well as a manufacture who understands print for pay production. Canon does not, I know, I had 7 Canon boxes, 4 of which were color. I also did not have 3 phase power in my current location and it would have cost nearly $20,000 to get it here, and Canon would not support a phase converter for the C7000VP. With my experience with the "flagship" at the time CLC4000, Canon was less than responsive with its short comings, only acknowledging its problems but no solutions. (Other than get the 7000VP)

Xerox on the other hand has proven in the last year to be exactly the opposite, they understand if the machine is not running I, and they are not making money. Service is impeccable, and support is second to none.

Canon has an exceptional product once the bugs are worked out, I just don't know if their office/business mentality will change. That's why if I was going to get the 7000AP I would get the Kodak version, they understand production as well.

 

[Color Copier REP 18 years]

Canon and KMBS Stepup PP service Teams

Canon and KMBS Stepup PP service Teams

Craig, you are absolutly correct in regards to Canon having the office service mentallity. But all thats going to change within the next 90 days here in So CAL. Due to the economic conditions, neither manufactuer can afford to lose sales opportunites due to alledged poor service. Its not all that difficult as everyone in the So Cal marketplace will witness. Print Production clicks are agreessively priced to produce more clicks. Xerox service is about communication with the customer and giving the support people the proper tools to do their job, but they are not perfect. I worked their for two years when the launched the Doc 2060 and I remember setting up customer service meetings at some pretty large accounts due to poor service. I've consulted with numerous branch service managers from Xerox, Ricoh, Canon, KM, OCE, IKON, Toshiba and as a result my customers do not have service problems.

 

[sweatyclimber]

I thought Norm Melesh from KMBS already owend every color device in southern cali. I know he sold about 385/yr when I was there.

Anyway that was off topic some... KMBS already has a PP service team and has for several years. Canon is going through several changes and tough times loosing all the Mega Dealer sales channels. I would suggest that they will likely have growing pains as they try to restructure and reorganize. While they make a great product, I would say based on all that's happening in the industry, Xerox or KM would be a better choice. I know MWB and KMBS out there are strong organizations who handle those product lines.