Xerox confused by PDF-X?

arossetti

Well-known member
We have been having issues with some imposed files dropping an imposition during ripping (4up file becomes 3-up with a blank space). I spoke to second level engineering and the guy told me that it needed to be a PDF-x3 file to ensure this doesn't happen. I explained that we are transitioning to a pdf-x4 workflow and he told me that pdf-x4 is not a real print industry specification and was only created for the government. He continued that x1a and x3 are the only true print related PDF formats. I was about to ask him about Ghent and where he was getting his information from but decided to just hang up. What the hell is he talking about, is any of that based in truth?
 

abc

Well-known member
No truth there at all.
PDF/X-4 is most definitely a print spec and you are absolutely correct to be moving towards it.
He is possibly getting confused with PDF/A which is an archival version of PDF that is specified by a lot of governmental departments.

You should direct him to GWG.org and ask him to down the PDF/X-4 based Ghent Output Suite and see how he gets on testing it.
Then he can tell you how to set up your workflow/DFE correctly.
 

michaelejahn

Well-known member
PDF/X-4 is an ISO standard - ISO 15930-7:2008 - now ISO 15930-7:2010

PDF/X-4 is an ISO standard - ISO 15930-7:2008 - now ISO 15930-7:2010

.... he told me that pdf-x4 is not a real print industry specification and was only created for the government. He continued that x1a and x3 are the only true print related PDF formats. I was about to ask him about Ghent and where he was getting his information from but decided to just hang up. What the hell is he talking about, is any of that based in truth?

You have met someone who is ignorant ( I did not say dumb or stupid here, just ignorant ), thats all.

Perhaps the last time that person spoke to anyone about PDF/X-4, it was 2007 (?)

PDF/X-4 : also know as ISO 15930-7:2008

( ISO as in International Standards Organization )

Graphic technology -- Prepress digital data exchange using PDF -- Part 7: Complete exchange of printing data (PDF/X-4) and partial exchange of printing data with external profile reference (PDF/X-4p) using PDF 1.6

ISO 15930-7:2008 - Graphic technology -- Prepress digital data exchange using PDF -- Part 7: Complete exchange of printing data (PDF/X-4) and partial exchange of printing data with external profile reference (PDF/X-4p) using PDF 1.6

it has been through a revision ( back in 2010 )

ISO 15930-7:2010 - Graphic technology -- Prepress digital data exchange using PDF -- Part 7: Complete exchange of printing data (PDF/X-4) and partial exchange of printing data with external profile reference (PDF/X-4p) using PDF 1.6

Tell your Xerox contact that George W. Bush is no longer President and that Boris Yeltsin died.

Oh, and the problem is probably memory related - or - you have an older RIP and it needs to be upgraded, as it may have run into an operator that your older RIP did not understand ( although I rather doubt that, since you mention this is an imposed PDF - what did you use to impose it, and , can that imposition export PDF/X ?
 

Dov Isaacs

Well-known member
We have been having issues with some imposed files dropping an imposition during ripping (4up file becomes 3-up with a blank space). I spoke to second level engineering and the guy told me that it needed to be a PDF-x3 file to ensure this doesn't happen. I explained that we are transitioning to a pdf-x4 workflow and he told me that pdf-x4 is not a real print industry specification and was only created for the government. He continued that x1a and x3 are the only true print related PDF formats. I was about to ask him about Ghent and where he was getting his information from but decided to just hang up. What the hell is he talking about, is any of that based in truth?
Although I doubt whether the vast majority of Xerox employees know or care about the Ghent Workgroup, the fact is that Xerox does recommend fully color-managed PDF/X-4 (not the Ghent subset of PDF/X-4) for its digital printers that support direct PDF printing (such as is supported by the Adobe PDF Print Engine technology).

In fact, PDF/X-4 out of Adobe applications is the recommendation of Xerox. Sounds like the person you spoke with at Xerox needs to be sent to the Gulag for regrooving!

- Dov
 

arossetti

Well-known member
the fact is that Xerox does recommend fully color-managed PDF/X-4 (not the Ghent subset of PDF/X-4) for its digital printers that support direct PDF printing (such as is supported by the Adobe PDF Print Engine technology).

Funny you should say that because a local Xerox analyst questioned why our defaults were to use the APPE instead of postscript. Stating that we should only use the APPE if we see transparency issues. I ignored this advice.
 

abc

Well-known member
'I don't use postscript because of where I work!'

Where do you work?

'The 21st century!'
 
Last edited:

chevalier

Well-known member
Funny you should say that because a local Xerox analyst questioned why our defaults were to use the APPE instead of postscript. Stating that we should only use the APPE if we see transparency issues. I ignored this advice.

Back in the day when I was first migrating to PDF/X4 and from PS to APPE... the APPE RIP would occasionally just choke and generate an out of memory error. We'd then generate a PDFX1A to pre-flatten for the RIP. If it still choked we'd run the PDF/X1a through the PS interpreter. We had some designs where we just knew APPE wasn't going to be a workable option and avoided it altogether. I wonder if this informed her/his (out of date) thinking.
 

kheslin

Member
Funny you should say that because a local Xerox analyst questioned why our defaults were to use the APPE instead of postscript. Stating that we should only use the APPE if we see transparency issues. I ignored this advice.

We've had Xerox "experts" tell us the same thing about PS vs APPE. When we told them "because our customers use transparency", their response was "Why are they using transparency, don't they know better"

Don't even get me started on Freeflow Print Server for iGen4 not honoring overprint settings under APPE. We documented the issue and sent it to the "engineers" whose response was "works as designed".
 

chevalier

Well-known member
We've had Xerox "experts" tell us the same thing about PS vs APPE. When we told them "because our customers use transparency", their response was "Why are they using transparency, don't they know better"

Don't even get me started on Freeflow Print Server for iGen4 not honoring overprint settings under APPE. We documented the issue and sent it to the "engineers" whose response was "works as designed".

Xerox isn't the only one guilty of this. I know of at least a few major "industry leading" commercial printing and packaging workflows that still don't fully support PDF/X4.
 

Dov Isaacs

Well-known member
We've had Xerox "experts" tell us the same thing about PS vs APPE. When we told them "because our customers use transparency", their response was "Why are they using transparency, don't they know better"

Don't even get me started on Freeflow Print Server for iGen4 not honoring overprint settings under APPE. We documented the issue and sent it to the "engineers" whose response was "works as designed".
Perhaps the types of nonsensical responses from those Xerox “experts” explains some of the challenges that Xerox has these days, you think? :rolleyes:

In terms of honoring overprint settings ...

Out of the box, the Adobe PDF Print Engine honors all process color overprints. However, since the OEMs (in this case, Xerox) customize the configuration and add some of their own “secret sauce,” default overprint settings might not be appropriate for the jobs being printed. Sometimes, there are settings available via the products' control panels to set overprint to industry standards and sometimes (unfortunately) not! You might need to dig deep to get documentation on how to properly configure these systems. And unfortunately, these types of issues are not limited to Xerox or even products using the Adobe PDF Print Engine technology. Back in the late 1990s, there were all sorts of issues with these same vendors mucking with the PostScript overprint settings of the RIPs of those days.

- Dov
 

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