Xerox DC242, HiCap feeder, Pro finisher - Issues with grey

[AverroesDesign]

Hi guys, as you are aware I am new on here. Cant believe I have not been able to find this forum. I registered on colourprinting forum but you hardly get a response, surprised to see how vibrant this place is.

Now a background into what we do, we are actually a design agency that have entered the print industry in recent times. It got to a stage where we were clearly being ripped off by print suppliers, digital print suppliers to be specific. So decided on buying something not too expensive and production like that it delivers much more than we need it too and likewise waste our money. And not something too cheap where we compromise quality. Now of course everyone will have their own personal opinions as to which machine is better than which in terms of price against quality but we ended up choosing the Xerox DC242 with a high cap feeder and a professional finisher due to small run booklets we do for small organisation on regular runs.

Now, since the day we introduced the machine we have been having issues with greys. Anything grey comes out cloudy/smudgy but not in lines and streaks like ive read here and elsewhere. Its like as though it puts the toner on irregularly. Pretty much all other colours come out fantastic especially when calibrated (done weekly). The engineers dont have a clue on earth as to what the issue is, so give the answer "its a common thing". Basically all avenues I have taken with Xerox lead me to a dead end as they are highly unhelpful even though i have a nice service pack with them etc.

After getting one or two answers from colourprintingforum, I am being told the engineers were telling me a load of rubbish and that in its range the DC242 probably produces the best greys in digital printing. I have the same issue on every stock. All my stock is digital. Initially i tried Xerox when i first started, that stuff was diabolical and gets worse. I have since tried creator 300gsm silk and uncoated, clairalfa 110, 120, lumi, mondi ...

Although the issue varies per stock i use, it still exists on everything i use to some extent.

Now CWS settings, i am not too clued up on half the stuff thats on there as Xerox originally offered FREE training on my machine and once it arrive refused to offer anything as such saying I would have to pay for it. Ridiculous if you ask me

Nevertheless, I go through setting my stock weight, location and only ever seen difference with Relative Colourmetric but have no real clue why that is. Everything is trial and error, other than the obvious options when it comes to folding and saddle stitching etc.

Really really do apologise for the long winded first post, but it was a first post so thought a little introduction as to who we and what we do would be more appropriate before jumping to the problem. However guys I am really stuck and need someones help. Preferably somone with a similar setup to mine.

Do you guys manage to get nice even greys, and if so what settings do you use for 280gsm upwards on silk, gloss and uncoated. Likewise on 120-200gsm silk, gloss etc

Any help would be great

Thanks

 

[AverroesDesign]

Anyone please?

 

[Windward]

Docucolor Gray Screens

Docucolor Gray Screens

Averroes,
We have had mixed results with large flat screened areas. I can't say that we have had a specific issue with grays. We have an EFI embedded RIP with Command Workstation. Have you tried changing the halftone screen type in CWS? We have settled on "200 Cluster Dot" for our work and this seems to be the best compromise. On occasion, we have also added a bit of noise to flat screened objects in Photoshop. This also helps.

Windward is also a design shop that added digital printing four years ago with the Docucolor 250. We have just purchased a Xerox 700 and hope this overcomes some of the limitations of the DC250.

If you would like to send a sample file as a PDF, I would be happy to print it and let you know the results.

 

[AverroesDesign]

Hi matey,

ive not messed around with clusters etc but I am going to give it a try. Do you think youll have a photo of a large grey area printed to see how it comes out?

also please provide me your email so i can send something over to you for testing

meanwhile anyone else thats experienced anythin as such do drop a message please

 

[inoxx]

Whats the % of grey you are using?

 

[AverroesDesign]

I go off the standard CMYK swatch in illustrator. Only really build solid black manually

 

[inoxx]

But do you got more problems when using darker greys? Plus if you look at the grey with a magnifying-glass do you only see black then or also cyan, magenta and yellow?

 

[Windward]

Gray Screens on DC250

Gray Screens on DC250

Averroes,

I'll make a file with some gray screen percentages and print it with various settings.

My e-mail is [email protected].

 

[AverroesDesign]

other than solid black all other shades of grey have this issue but of course the lighter it gets the more worse for wear it looks

 

[AverroesDesign]

Averroes,

I'll make a file with some gray screen percentages and print it with various settings.

My e-mail is [email protected].

Ill send you something tomorrow as it is 11pm here in uk at the mo

but thanks for that mate

 

[inoxx]

Is it possible you make a scan of a printed file so we can see what you are talking about?

 

[AverroesDesign]

infact that will be a good idea. Only problem is, dont know if the problem would show up in a scan but ill try it tomorrow.

innox i remember using 60% grey from the CMYK Standard swatch on the back of a a4 brochure printed on 280 silk artboard. How would you personally go about adding 60% grey, would you manually make it or do what i did i.e. select of the swatches.

Furthermore, what other settings would you choose

 

[X33]

two suggestions :

1. play with the screening option of your Fiery

2. add noise in your source file

 

[AverroesDesign]

X33, how do i do No.1, where in CWS is this

Again noise, how do i play around with the noise

thanks

 

[inoxx]

I have printed a 320 mm x 450 mm sheet full with 60% black and yes, its not very nice. I think its normal for these machines. The only thing you can try is to try a pms gray like cool gray 9 or something. But then it will be printed in full color.

The machine I used is a dc 260 and the media was DCP 300 grs.
I know you will get same problems if you use 60 % cyan or 60 % magenta.
Its just something the machine cant do perfect.

So best thing, use a cool gray pms. Best result are when using full color.

Hope this will help you.

 

[AverroesDesign]

Inoxx I should have made myself clear. I have this issue just as much when I print. In full colour and most of the times it is full colour printing I run

Also I am being told that it can still look fantastic via cws settings

 

[X33]

X33, how do i do No.1, where in CWS is this

Again noise, how do i play around with the noise

thanks

1. it's not in CWS, it is in the Fiery Print Driver settings, check the COLOR and IMAGE QUALITY tabs.

2. I don't know. you need to check your Adobe manual.

 

[che.c]

Digital Grey = No.

Let me rephrase that, modify your expectations. With a new dev tank, fresh IBT belt and a shiny new black drum they'll be nice. In a week's time it'll be back to business as usual.

Did your previous digital print suppliers who were ripping you off have the same problems? Digital print is more than just clicking go. The screen settings and image quality settings are all in CWS.

Perhaps you did not know the amount of processing that was done to your 'print-ready' files before they were produced.. I know 99.9% of my clients do not. Colour re-mapping, custom profiles etc all go into producing top-quality work and it's done on a job-by-job basis.

If you work hard you'll be able to construct and tweak a few presets that'll handle a fair chunk of your jobs without too much messing around, but it's not click-and-go.

 

[AverroesDesign]

Hi Che.c, thanks for the reply matey.

The previous supplier did have such problems but for a few months i did switch suppliers before getting my own machine and they had no issues. The problem is, as usual being sold a machine without training yet when you question them they say its a paid service even though we agreed on free training on initial purchase. There is so much that can be done in terms of settings but problem is i have no clue what any of it means. Now ive changed print screen mode to cluster dot to see if it makes a difference but again im not entirely sure how and why it will work. So far just going by what others are telling me.

In your case, what settings would you use for best results in grey

And that is a question for anyone else also, what specific settings you guys use when you have a large patch of grey yet have to run the job in colour

Thanks

 

[che.c]

I had a more detailed read over your first post and I don't know who told you the 242 had the best digital grey.. it doesn't have the best anything. Not to say that it's a bad machine, far from it, but it's nowhere even near the bleeding edge of quality. Or reliability. Or speed.

To take a few points from your first post -

Initially i tried Xerox when i first started, that stuff was diabolical and gets worse.

Best paper I've printed on. I don't know how you could say this. It was miles better than lumidigital, Tom&Otto, Black Label and numerous litho types.

Pretty much all other colours come out fantastic especially when calibrated (done weekly)

Weekly? Very weakly. If you're running a bustled rip and calibrating off the glass it needs done a helluva lot more often than that.

Nevertheless, I go through setting my stock weight, location...

Goes without saying, this is called 'setting the job up'. Your minimum setup of a job infact. Should take about 15 seconds tops.

...only ever seen difference with Relative Colourmetric...

You feeding the RIP RGB files?


Now I don't want to seem harsh here but do you understand how the machine works? How the machine turns powder into pictures? You sound a bit lost with it. I don't know how your techs are locally, but the ones I work with are very good and I have learnt a helluva lot from them. I started off by reading up on the theory of how the machine works and they've explained some of the practice. Everytime you make a call and they fix something do you know what they've fixed? Why it was broken? How it was fixed? What symptoms that malfunction causes?

And what about the RIP? Do you know the gauntlet that colours run through before they're put on the page? Again, very important.

If you're in charge of running this machine tell your boss you need some training and to just stump up the money. Have you any prepress/operator experience?


I would heartily recommend you take some time researching the actual imaging and RIPing process, the options will make more sense to you then. The manuals for the printer should have come with the installation CDs and there are numerous resources online, they will explain what the options in CWS mean.


Your choice is educate yourself, or pay for training. Or employ someone who's run a digital printer before and knows what they're doing.


As for your problem with the greys, think about why they're not even. And why something like red or blue is. The answer might become clear. Infact it's already in the thread repeatedly.

Lastly, and most importantly, try and enjoy yourself a bit. If you can enjoy running the machine, and get satisfaction from a good job, rather than just frustration from a bad one, you will get a lot further. Think of it like design, some of your best ideas come through play.