Xerox vs. Km

[willvp2408]

Hello,

We are a small print shop looking to get more into digital arena. We are currently looking at a xerox color 550 & a Konica Minolta c652 DS. Any feedback would be great. We are currently using a ricoh machine with so so results. The xerox has a fiery rip the km does not. Also a big difference in the price, km is alot cheaper but has no rip. Does anyone also have any experience with the decurler unit on a xerox. Does it work?

Thanks,

Will

 

[MagicBox]

A c652 wouldn't typically be compared to a 550 with a fiery - two different types of product. You may want to ask konica for a professional color device or perhaps ask Xerox for an office product which would compare to the c652 - something like a Xerox WC7556.

The 550 has tight registration and very nice reliable color.

 

[willvp2408]

Thanks for the reply. The salesperson said that the KM model is the closest comparison to the Xerox 550. The next machine is a much bigger and much more money machine in the KM line. When I look at the 2 the Xerox machine seems to be more production than the KM model does. The biggest thing they are pushing is that the Xerox machine has a decurler in the finishing unit. I have no experience with this at all. Will have to do more home work on this and not just believe the salesman.

 

[Shaja]

I'm the purchasing manager for my independent Konica Minolta dealership (not a sales rep), so I know our models and accessories pretty well. The information your KM rep gave you about the C652DS was not complete.

There are actually two "flavors" of the C652; the "DS" version means that it will "dual scan" out of the document feeder. If you aren't going to use that feature, I suggest asking the rep to quote you the version without DS, which is a pinch cheaper.

Also, there most definitely is a Fiery available for the C652/C652DS. The model is the IC-412, and optional accessories for it include Color Profiler Suite, spectrophotometer, auto trap, hot folders, secure erase, and the Fiery SeeQuence Impose and Compose tools.

The model is part of Konica Minolta's office product line-up, but speaking from our own experience we do have some smaller print shop clients like yourself who are using the faster office models to break into digital print. They tell us they find it an affordable way to produce color product that is profitable.

 

[willvp2408]

Thanks for the reply. Which models do they use? What kind of price range are they with a rip?

Thanks

 

[Shaja]

For office units in a Print4Pay environment, we've seen just about every Konica from their color bizhub line get placed. The C451 (the predecessor to the C452, which is a sister engine to the C652) was particularly popular. We have a few C552/C652s out there now.

MSRP for the base DS engine is $33K. MSRP for the IC-412 and its required video interface kit is $4K. Nobody ever pays MSRP. For specific pricing to you, you'll have to see your local rep; it will depend on what kind of purchasing contracts that dealer or branch has with Konica.

This point has been made many times in other threads, but don't forget to evaluate the kind of service you'd be getting. That's just as important as the quality of the color output. You should make sure your vendor has a track record of successfully and efficiently servicing Print4Pay clients and understands that a down machine costs you money.

 

[X33]

you are comparing 2 models designed for different needs.

I'm sure you can get a Fiery on the KM like the dealer above says. They probably are not doing it because then the price will go up and make it comparable to the Xerox so they will no longer have a significant price advantage.

I think the Fiery is a MUST for your type of work.

About the decurler in the Xerox 550, it is great. It will save you a lot of headaches especially when you are printing on heavy stocks.

 

[willvp2408]

I thought it was kind of weird they would price me a machine without a rip. The KM machine is about 9 grand less but without a rip. The X machine has a rip and a decurler. Unless I would go with a high end KM seems like the xerox is a stronger machine. My Ricoh printer has it limits. I have to make a color copy to make the blacks come out decent.
Thanks for the input.

 

[Shaja]

X33 said it exactly right, you are comparing 2 models designed for different needs.

Let me fill in some of the blanks on the Konica production models to make it more "apples-to-apples" for you. Konica does has decurling options on its color production models (they have "PRO" and "PRESS" in their names), but not on its color office models. For example, the bizhub PRO C5501, which is the entry level production color, has a dehumidifier/heater for its large capacity tray. It also has a choice of three production rips: an external Fiery, an embedded Fiery and an external Creo.

It is priced significantly more than an office unit again because it's built heavier and it's expected to serve a different need. However, Konica does have discounted Print4Pay pricing on these production units, and I would hope that your local KM vendor is participating on that contract.

Some additional thoughts for you to mull over:
*what features do YOU really need to be profitable (ie., do you really need decurling as much as you need a good rip? do you need both? do you need a different feature not discussed yet, such as inline finishing?)
* what are your projections for volume (immediately as well as down the road)? - and - if you want a production model but your budget is better for an office model, would a good used production model be a more affordable way to handle those volumes?
* and again .... service service service. And let me add to that thought ..... training training training, especially on whatever rip you choose. What local vendor will do the best job for you?

Hope this is helpful. Best wishes with your decision.

 

[willvp2408]

Take our time.

Take our time.

Thanks for the info guys. We are still looking and asking a ton of questions. I just want a machine the puts out a flat sheet with consistent colors and decent speed. I don't need a finishing unit right now. A rip is a must, and support for the machine. Time will tell what we will get in the mean time I have a Ricoh 5560v for sale!

Thanks,

Will

 

[xcolor]

Consistent Colors

Consistent Colors

Will, If one of your criteria is maintaining consistant colors on long runs and over the life of the machine, ask the prospecive vendors how they address this. Color drift and inconsistency is a challenge for many print shops.

The Xerox representative should be able to share some unique attibutes including it's Developer technology that will be helpful.

 

[willvp2408]

Well so far I am leaning toward the Xerox color 550. The colors look awesome, the one click for any size page, and the decurler are some good options I like. Anybody want to buy a Ricoh 5560v? It's for sale!

 

[OkiTech]

Hi, I used to work for a Toshiba/Sharp dealer... As far as your accessories... Please keep in mind that at the time of purchasing machine you have a leverage to push prices down versus when you already have the machine and need to add something - story will be a lot different. Manufacturers tend to change their line-up every 2-3 years and happens to be model you buy is in last year of productin and next year you will need a finishing option for a "as of today discuntinued machine" good luck - pay full MSRP would be a lucky day. Also you, most likely, will lease so adding something later when you have 2 years left on your lease, breaking it in 24 rather 36 payments could be troublesome as dealer may not have a guidance figures for non - standard therms... so think twice
They may push you in to early upgrade which may not be as favorable to you as balance owed for previous one some how would need to be inplemented in new lease...

 

[verticaldirect]

Hello,

We are a small print shop looking to get more into digital arena. We are currently looking at a xerox color 550 & a Konica Minolta c652 DS. Any feedback would be great. We are currently using a ricoh machine with so so results. The xerox has a fiery rip the km does not. Also a big difference in the price, km is alot cheaper but has no rip. Does anyone also have any experience with the decurler unit on a xerox. Does it work?

Thanks,

Will

We have both a KM6500C and Xerox DC700. Personally, the Xerox puts out a better printed sheet, but is nearly twice the machine cost than the Xerox.

From a handling perspective, again, the Xerox has a better paper handling system, and we experience about 1/10 the number of jams and feed issues on the Xerox.

Yes, the decurler works, but it depends on what stock and other environmental factors in your shop.

I consider our KM to be a high speed copier, whereas the Xerox is normally used for jobs that require better solids and tighter registration.

 

[willvp2408]

Thanks for the input. I have tried the KM machine and I rather the xerox. Xerox puts out a better color sheet no question about it. The KM machine is good, just not as good. Now all I have to do is get a good price on a machine. I just found out someone is my area just got one of them. Wonder if my price is the same as theirs. I bet being they are a chain store they get a much better deal than us mom & pop shops. We will see.............

 

[TommyTV]

Xerox 500 vs KM

Xerox 500 vs KM

We've had a small KM office machine for a while, and recently got a Xerox 560. I spent a lot of time comparing the basic print quality on comparable Xerox and KM machines, and absolutely without doubt the Xerox is much sharper/cleaner and shows less anti-aliasing on curves. I used exactly the same file to visually compare the print quality.
KM heavily promote the 8 bit engine compared to the Xerox 1 bit, but 2500 dpi looks quite a bit sharper than the 600 dpi KM. Our Xerox has Creo rather than Fiery and so far has been pretty straightforward to use. Double sided printing is very accurate.
I must point out that our expertise is in CD/DVD production, and we mainly print DVD sleeves and booklets. I'm not from a 'print' backgrounf but I know what I'm looking at and it's pretty good to me!

 

[willvp2408]

I have prints from both

I have prints from both

Tommytv

I have also done a print from both machines of the same file. I find the KM C6000 is a better print. The colors look closer to what they should be. Some of the prints are pretty close in quality. The greens and blues are better I find on the KM.
It's getting close to deciding on which machine. I am leaning towards the KM. The xerox seems to be NOT as heavy duty as the KM. The KM is 220 and the X is 110. Alot more metal parts than the X.

Thanks for your reply

Will