German Presses and Fogra

Green Printer

Registered Users
In the USA if we buy a German made press we are required to use Fogra certified chemistry to be in compliance with warranties.

The Japanese presses do not require Fogra certifed chemistry.

What are the practices in other countries concerning Fogra and German made presses?

Thank you

Pat Berger

Mercer Color

Edited by: Pat Berger on Jan 17, 2008 12:23 PM
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

I have bought about 25 presses in the last 30 years and have never heard that happens in the UK

Peter
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

Pat:
This started in the European mainland where there were 20 countries and 500 brands of fountain solution, lubricants, and cleaning solutions. Some of these chemicals were very corrosive and flammable and destroyed cylinders and rubber gaskets. Without the Fogra seal of approval for these various chemicals, the warranty for the press was void. Sort of makes sense, since it must have been costing Heidelberg a ton of Deutschmarks. The onus is on the suppliers of the chemicals to get the approval, not the printers.
Now it's filtering over the pond, where the state of chemical anarchy is not as great. The first emphasis that I remember was to minimize corrosion of cylinder jackets, and involved using fountain solution that had a pH about 5, more like Europe. By now, I think such products have been formulated, but ask Prisco.
I don't think they tell you what to use, they give a list to choose from of approved products. Surely it is for the good of the investment.
John Lind
Cranberry Township PA
724-776-4718
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

John
I always go with what they say anyway (but bever knew it was a requirement) - when there are problems in the early stages it just takes away the chemistry variable.


Its like when you have a Xerox machine you always have Xerox paper in the machine when th engineer arrives :)

Peter
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

Pat,
Fogra did a lot of research on supplies.
They have a huge library of research documents and suggestions to improve the printing process.
Some of them are free, some reports are sold. Some are in the German language, some are translated in English.
They also provide certification for proofers and proof supplies such as substrates.
Some proofing system vendors (even from the US) insist on the Fogra calibration of their systems installed in Germany and other German speaking countries. At that moment the Fogra certified substrate is the basic paper for the calibration process.
We would save some money if the PIA/GATF could use this documentation for their members.
PIA/GATF just started to sell the quality control tools of UGRA (Swiss Grahic Arts Research) and Fogra (German Graphic Arts Research).
Perhaps PIA/GATF could extend this cooperation by providing more of this knowledge.
The German vendors could then refer to GATF documents instead of Fogra and UGRA.
Henk
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

I have decided NOT to purchase any new presses made in Germany so I won't be restricted to using chemistry that is not Coneg certified.
To the best of my knowledge there is not a single item on any Fogra list that has been Coneg certified.
If I am wrong on this please let me know.
Fogra's chemicals list are for corrosive properties to metal, plastics and rubber components of the printing machines.

Thank you

Pat Berger
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

This is a translated extract from today's Deutscher Drucker
Druckforum is an event currently taking place in Stuttgart
The agreement referred to below is a follow up to one signed earlier by Heidelberg and KBA
In both cases the certification of the materials is to be carried out by Fogra
I imagine it is agreements such as this one that are at the root of the situation you are now experiencing

"The UV printing working group at Druckforum: A highlight of the evening was the signing of a joint letter of intent by Heidelberger Druckmaschinen, KBA and now MAN Roland on the development and introduction of generally applicable standards for the certification of UV and hybrid printing materials.."
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

I am curious how this will translate into the US market. Especially in southern California where there is a much more stringent requirement for press chemistries. The only low VOC wash (under 100gr/lt.) that is Fogra certified to my knowledge is from a Germany manufacture, interesting. There is a low VOC wash that is out there, that is manufactured by a US company, that I have heard form those that have used both washes say the US product is much better and can be used with conventional and UV inks. The Germany one is only for conventional inks. I can't imagine the US market being forced into using sub par products just because they are Fogra certified. As Pat B. has stated, he is at least one printer who has chosen not to buy a Germany press just for this issue.
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

As I understand it, the point of the certification procedures agreed between the German press manufacturers and Fogra is to provide a framework for the testing of products in relation to their various properties and in the specific case of voiding warranties their corrosive properties.
They do not say you must buy product X or product Y, that you must buy a German product or a US product, they do not say you must buy a product I or one of my cat's paws produces. They say you are free to buy any product on this list.

By compiling an approved list of chemicals that have been checked for corrosive properties the manufacturers are of course seeking to control their warranty exposure, but not unreasonably. If you bought a diesel car, filled it with petrol and blew the engine would you expect it to be covered by warranty?
However, they are also developing a scheme that protects you. If you use a product that corrodes your press it costs you time and money even if the warranty covers the repair.
Wouldn't it be better not to corrode the press in the first place?

One of the points of the German press manufacturers jointly agreeing on certification procedures and using Fogra to do the certification is that it makes it neutral.

Since three of the world's largest press manufacturers happen to be German, are headquartered there and carry out the bulk of their R&D and manufacturing there and Fogra is the local research institute it is natural for them to turn to Fogra as the certifying body.

However, the Fogra list or lists is/are not written in stone. Any company from any country can submit its products for certification and products can be added to the lists at any time. There is nothing to stop the US manufacturer of low VOC wash you refer to from submitting it to Fogra for certification.

Now you might say this is all very well but in practice it costs time and money and whatever they say 'publicly' it's all just a cosy little German cartel. To which I would respond
1/ The best way of ensuring it is a cosy German cartel is by refusing to engage with it.
2/ Yes certification will take time and money - so does any certification procedure not just Fogra, think quality assurance, environmental management, process standard offset and all those ISO numbers people increasingly brandish; but at the end of the day you have an objectively certified product and you can use the certification as a marketing tool or as a means of entering markets that are currently closed to you.
If your US manufacturer of low VOC wash really does have a product that is much better than its German competitor then Fogra certification would allow it to wipe the floor in the German market - a market which at present is presumably closed to it.

You might say that by trying to insist on the use of Fogra certified products, which, whatever the theoretical position, in practice gives German consumables manufacturers a head start, the German manufacturers are excluding many perfectly good products from the US, for example; that many of these match or exceed the properties of the certified products but whose manufacturers have not certified them with Fogra because of the time, expense, funny language (everybody I know at Fogra speaks English), low profile in the US.... whatever.

Leaving aside the fact that there is no inherent bar to a US manufacturer having its products certified by Fogra, there is no absolute reason why Fogra has to be the certifying body The current agreements between the manufacturers are with Fogra but that is really for historical and geographical reasons. What Fogra brings to the party is its expertise and neutrality. There is no intrinsic reason why some other body, let us call it the Californian Institute of Green Printing, with the same level of expertise and neutrality couldn't serve as a local certifying body. Of course agreements would have to be reached between it and the manufacturers, ideally between it and the other certifying authorities to ensure they are all singing from the same hymn sheet; but in theory it could be done.

If there are lots of good US products, If US printers want to buy them, if there is the expertise to set up a certification system in the US - and I'm sure you'll answer yes to all of these - then why not set up a local equivalent in the US with the US operations of the German manufacturers; ideally working to the same criteria as the German system so we don't introduce yet another set of competing standards. Then US printers will be able to buy their favoured products, US manufacturers will not be put to the time and expense of gaining some weird foreign certification and the press manufacturer's primary interest of ensuring somebody doesn't try to use hydrofluoric acid to clean their press is protected.

There is a somewhat analogous situation with PSO certification in Germany. There is a common national/international standard but most companies are actually certified by their local regional federation - 1 standard overseen by several linked bodies
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

The following link is o Fogra

http://www.fogra.org/washes/washes_info/i-washes.pdf

Below is a portion of the pdf

F or which printing machines can the
technical approval testing be carried
out?
At the present time this test is carried
out by Fogra on behalf of the following
machine manufacturers and washing
installation manufacturers:
Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG
[sheet-fed offset ]
MAN Roland Druckmaschinen AG
[sheet-fed offset and weboffset]
Koenig & Bauer AG [sheet-fed offset
and weboffset]
Baldwin Germany GmbH
Baldwin Oxy-Dry GmbH
technotrans AG


W hat steps are necessary to arrange
for the testing of a washing
agent?
First of all the “Berufsgenossenschaft
Druck und Papierverarbeitung” requires
details of the composition in order to
assess risks to health. It goes without
saying, that this information is treated
as highly confidential. Fogra requires a
written order, the safety data sheet for
the product and a certain quantity of the
washing agent. The quantity depends on
the type of printing machine for which
the test is to be carried out. Furthermore,
it is advisable to contact the manufacturer
of the printing machine or the
washing system in question since some
manufacturers also require a practical
test to check the washing performance
of the washing agent.


What happens when the work has
been commissioned?
When the order has been received, Fogra
sends you a confirmation of the order
which contains all the information concerning
the time required for the test,
the person in charge and the price. The
time required for testing is, as a rule,
about 8 to 10 weeks. The test criteria
depend on the machine manufacturer’s
requirements and are specifically agreed
with the relevant manufacturer.
¬
¬
¬
¬
¬
¬
Although the machine manufacturers
co-operate in activities whose aim is
to reduce emissions, they are still competitors
with regard to the sale of new
machines. Therefore it has been agreed
between the machine manufacturers
and Fogra that, detailed information
with regard to specific test materials
must not be revealed to third parties by
Fogra.
When the tests have been completed,
Fogra sends all the results to the
machine manufacture concerned in the
form of a final report. On the basis of
the test results, the manufacturer then
decides whether or not the product can
be recommended for application to its
printing press or washing system. If the
test is successful, Fogra will be authorised
by the relevant machine manufacturer
to issue the approval certificate.


Fogra also helps with the marketing!
All products which have been tested and
approved are included in a list which is
continuously updated by Fogra. The
most up to date form of the list is given
on the Fogra home page.


Furthermore:
The testing carried out by Fogra is not
only established in Germany. At the
end of 2006 no less than 441 products
from 120 international manufacturers
were certified. As a result, these certified
products are now more and more
available worldwide since many manufacturers
also sell their washing agents
through foreign subsidiaries.
Everything has its price!
We have summarised the costs to suppliers
of washing agents in order to provide
a rapid overview of current prices
for the testing of washing agents.
If you are interested in having your
product tested for more than one press
manufacturer, we will be glad to submit
our quotation. Please do not hesitate to
direct your inquiry to us.


Members of Fogra generally receive a
30% discount on expert reports and
advice – it pays to be a member of
Fogra!


And if the product does not satisfy
the requirements?
If it becomes evident during a test that
the product does not satisfy a specified
condition or meet a specified limit,
then the manufacturer is immediately
informed in detail and testing is temporarily
halted. The manufacture is also
told which limit or condition has not
been met. This should enable the manufacturer
to modify the product to satisfy
the required conditions.
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

Any wash manufacturer can submit their product to Fogra for testing and, according to the Fogra pdf 120 have done so and passed the procedure. If you have a supplier of a good but uncertified product, why not suggest they consider the possibility of having it certified?
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

The test are performed by Fogra. The test are submitted to the press manufacturer. The press manufacturer has to give the OK if the product is to be certified. Fogra only issues a certificate when OK"ED by the press manufacturer.

The press manufacturers do have the ability to OK a product or products without Fogra testing. The product could be press manufacturer approved. There is nothing stopping the press manufacturers from saying a product is Ok to use.
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

As I understand it, the press manufacturer decides whether or not to accept the Fogra report.
Fogra cannot force manufacturer X to accept product Y
A press manufacturer can approve any product it likes for use on its presses but, as far as I know, if that product has not been tested by Fogra and passed Fogra's tests it can't say that it is Fogra approved.

If you like, I can ask people I know at Fogra to clarify the exact procedure
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

Dear Mr. Berger,

Here are some more information about the Fogra tests of chemicals directly from Fogra.

The main idea of the Fogra tests comes from investigations into the health and safety aspects of press room chemicals. In the early 90s we found a lot of substances in press room chemicals which had a high risk to the health and safety of printers. Together with the German Berufsgenossenschaft Druck (The German institution for statutory accident insurance and prevention in the printing and paper processing industry) we looked at possibilities of bannig these dangerous chemicals from the press rooms.

As a result of these activities, the press manufacturers and Fogra installed the certification process at Fogra. If you use certified press room chemicals you can be sure that you use chemicals which are of minimized risk to the health and safety of your printers and the environment and which also protect your presses from damages.

The system is open to everybody all over the world. Every manufacturer of pressroom chemicals can send us his products. If he fails some test criteria we will help him to fulfil the criteria in the next step so that he will still have a chance to get his (high-performing) product on our and the press manufacturers list of recommended chemicals.

If you have further questions please contact us directly.


Dr. Wolfgang Rauh

Head of the environment and chemistry department
Fogra Institut
[email protected]
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

I have done my homework to respond to you.

Lets start with the health and safety aspects of press room chemicals.

1. In Germany you have no VOC reporting on sheetfed press chemicals, in other words all chemicals associated with sheetfed printing are exempt from any VOC reporting.


The German Berufsgenossenschaft Druck list is a "suggestion"
it is not law and is not enforced.


Material Safety Data Sheets are from the United States and required by law to be made available without impeding any employee’s right to view them.

Allow me to list the Federal, State, and District lists and laws we
must conform to in the United States;
FEDERAL
Accidental Release Prevention Substances
Hazardous Air Pollutants
Ozone Depleting Chemicals
SOCMI Chemicals
Carcinogens (OSHA, IARC, NPT)
CERCLA Hazardous Substances
Clean Water Act Priority Pollutants
DOT Hazardous Materials
Marine Pollutants
NFPA Hazardous Materials
NIOSH Guide to Chemical Hazards
Permissible Exposure List
PSM Highly Hazardous Chemicals
RCRA Highly Hazardous Chemicals
RCRA 40 CRF F and K Code Table
RCRA Ground Water List
RCRA Hazardous Wastes
SARA Extremely Hazardous Substances
SARA Toxic Release Chemicals
TSCA Chemical Substances Inventory
TSCA High Production Volume Chemicals
TSCA PMNACC Addendum
TSCA 12 (b) Chemicals PMN Listing
TSCA 12 (b) Confidential Chemicals ACC Listing
TSCA 12 (b) Non-Confidential Chemicals CAS Listing
Department of Homeland Security - Appendix A

STATE
California Proposition 65
Delaware Air Quality Management List
Idaho Air Pollutants List
Illinois Toxic Air Contaminants List
Maine Hazardous Air Contaminants List
Massachusetts Hazardous Substances
Michigan Critical Materials
Minnesota Hazardous Substances
New Jersey RTK Hazardous Substances
New Jersey TCPA EHS List
New York List of Hazardous Substances
Pennsylvania Hazardous Substances
Washington Permissible Exposure Limits for Air Contaminants
West Virginia Toxic Air Pollutant List
Wisconsin Hazardous Air Contaminants

DISTRICTS
California South Coast Air Quality District
Monterey Bay Unified Air Pollution Control District
Great Basin Unified Air Pollution Control District
Butte County Air Quality Management District
Lake County Air Quality Management District
San Luis Obispo County Air Pollution Control District
Ventura County Air Pollution District
+ 300 more

We must also contend with insurance premiums,local fire yearly inspections, sewer BOD/COD/pH violations and fines, employee health insurance, workman's compensation insurance.

I think that the products we use exceed and surpass any Fogra test. They have already met or exceeded or are regulated by over 350 Health and Safety and many other requirements in the United States.





Mr. Pietzsch let me get this right, you want to know what a wash up chemical does to your paint on German made presses, disclose full formula (which you will keep secret?) and you want to know about health? So if the paint is disturbed by your test, you want to help our chemical supplier/manufacturers help conform so their products do not disturb your paint and conform to a voluntary health risk assessment?

Edited by: Pat Berger on Mar 10, 2008 7:28 AM
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

Pat, i will be interested to see if you can get an answer on this.
I agree with your position and i find it incredible that this "cartel" continues to be held up as the arbitrator of what is used by printers (or void "warranty")
We are seeing this in Australia as well and it is nothing more than a tool some use to push their chemicals....
Especially Heidelberg, who have their own range of rebranded products.
I look forward to seeing the real answer.
 
Re: German Presses and Fogra

Still nothing Pat. Surely they must think this is important enough to warrant a statement??
 
in my experience so far, the fogra approved products don't perform near as well as the 'non'fogra approved products that I've come across.

all fogra cares about is the safety and health issues related. they have nothing to do with the printabilty of the product. being fogra approved, doesn't mean it works the way we expect.

what's interesting is the majority of printers in europe (germany) still run with alcohol, but in the states we started doing away with it over 20 years ago due to EPA and health reasons, yet, they haven't banned it as we have.

if the products work they way we want them to, being fogra approved shouldn't matter to us. most of the chemical manufacturers in the states are now scrambling to come up with certified products because they know it's becoming a big issue over here and they want in on it.

anyone can make an approved product, it's just making one that works.

yes, heidelburg and manroland are making and selling fogra appoved products........which are actually made in the states and private labelled for each. it would be too expensive to ship thousands of gallons of chemistry from overseas and then expect to sell them at competitve prices. they've gone through testing each product for runabilty and then sent samples to germany to get certified. in theory, you should be getting a product that performs for you.
 

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