INKKEY PRESSETING SOFTWARE

[pressman81]

Hello, I run a workshop with 3 commercial webpresses, that prints from newsprint to coated paper. I'm want to reduce paper waste by using a Inkkey Pre-set softwarethat gives me the charts with the ammount of ink requiered per ink key.

I have seen serveral options as Presspercent, Xitron Keysetter, Ink Ready and Quickset. Prices goes from a couple hundred dollars to some hundred thousand.

What software could be the best choice?

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hello, I run a workshop with 3 commercial webpresses, that prints from newsprint to coated paper. I'm want to reduce paper waste by using a Inkkey Pre-set softwarethat gives me the charts with the ammount of ink requiered per ink key.

I have seen serveral options as Presspercent, Xitron Keysetter, Ink Ready and Quickset. Prices goes from a couple hundred dollars to some hundred thousand.

What software could be the best choice?

Thanks

I would suggest that you don't spend a lot of money on ink key presetting software. Most of these systems are based on the idea that the ink key setting is directly related to the image area of the plate. This is a faulty view. The ink consumption per ink key is NOT directly related to the image area on the plate in line with the key. Many issues are involved and the errors can be high if one assumes plate coverage relates to ink consumption.

It is not a difficult problem but it is a complicated problem since there are many issues and they are different for each job one will print. The calculation is dependent on the design of the press and the images being printed.

But even if a presetting software does only use the ink coverage of the plate, that is much much better than trying to decide that by eye. Yes, so even the lowest cost ink key presetting software you can get and that is practical for you to use, will be much better than having nothing.

Even if you did get the perfect ink key software that calculated the setting perfectly, there are other issues such as how accurate your press sets the keys. Is it done manually via levers or do you have motorized control of the keys that are repeatable. Is the ink blade segmented?

Also the issue of the ductor not transferring ink consistently will affect predictability.

Try Presspercent and use it to get some experience working with this kind of software. The cost is so low it is almost risk free.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Ink key presetting software although maybe not 100% accurate is still far better and faster than the pressman looking at the image on the plate and manually setting the ink keys for each colour in my humble opinion
I have seen some really good results using presets as long as you are maintaining a good zero set procedure.
Will you ever get 100% perfect presetting ? probably not with today's technology but really close is a good start.
The issue I see often see is that you are presetting with ink that has not yet been emulsified with water and this causes differences when you start running. Most preset software should come with a learning feature which looks at the ink setting for each key that the software gave you for start up and then looks again to see where that key ended up and make some form of software fine tuning. Again not a perfect situation but better than nothing.
On a commercial web press I would have thought this would be a valuable addition to help reduce paper waster/time

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I have seen some really good results using presets as long as you are maintaining a good zero set procedure.
Will you ever get 100% perfect presetting ? probably not with today's technology but really close is a good start.
The issue I see often see is that you are presetting with ink that has not yet been emulsified with water and this causes differences when you start running. Most preset software should come with a learning feature which looks at the ink setting for each key that the software gave you for start up and then looks again to see where that key ended up and make some form of software fine tuning. Again not a perfect situation but better than nothing.
On a commercial web press I would have thought this would be a valuable addition to help reduce paper waster/time

Yes, zero setting is critical but very hard to do accurately with presses with ductors. Can be done accurately with "digital inkers" such as with Goss's and the one QuadTech has now. The zero setting is just a matter of stopping the ink feed with their ink zone pumps.

IMO, emulsification is not an issue even though it seems to be. The problem with different levels of emulsification in the roller train is that these differences affect the ink feed rate. When forcing the ink feed rate to be independent of changes in water, the print density is very consistent and therefore can also be predictable.

There are some ink key software that does attempt to have self learning capabilities. It is a nice idea and seems to make sense but the problem is that it is not mathematically valid. If one has the same problem to solve, then a self learning process can help to fine tune the result on successive tries. But presetting of offset presses is not the same problem for each setup. Each time you start up a new job, the problem of presetting is totally different mathematically. Therefore if you try to use a software that is trying to learn what to do, you will always be wrong. It will chase its tail.

If you have software that was mathematically capable of doing the needed calculations, then it would have to know all the issues that are needed to make an accurate calculation of what the presetting values should be in the first place. So why not do that.

There is no need to be perfect. If you have a tolerance for your densities that are acceptable if you run within those ranges, then the target is a large barn door. If your density tolerance is +/- 0.05 then your ink tolerance is about +/- 7% of ink volume. That is a total range of 14%. With newspaper press inks, that range is much more. So if you start the press and the densities are out of tolerance, it means you can not even hit the 14% barn door.

If you had a consistent and predictable ink feed with good zero setting and an accurate calculation of presetting ink keys, you would have very low set up waste. Much lower than what could be obtained with existing press technology and in-press density closed loop systems.

Of course I love trying to understand this topic and looking at valid solutions. Unfortunately the industry does not. :-(

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Still much better than an operator looking at 12 printing plates and setting ink keys manually. We were able to reduce our makeready sheets quite a lot as a direct result of installing CIP3 ink presetting. The alternative was to have the operator judge how much coverage each ink key requires and set them accordingly , this worked fine when we had one 4 colour press and a couple of operators, they knew the little differences of each ink fountain. When we moved to 3 presses 6 colour and 12 colour and had different operators running different presses CIP3 saved us many sheets however flawed the technology.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Still much better than an operator looking at 12 printing plates and setting ink keys manually. We were able to reduce our makeready sheets quite a lot as a direct result of installing CIP3 ink presetting. The alternative was to have the operator judge how much coverage each ink key requires and set them accordingly , this worked fine when we had one 4 colour press and a couple of operators, they knew the little differences of each ink fountain. When we moved to 3 presses 6 colour and 12 colour and had different operators running different presses CIP3 saved us many sheets however flawed the technology.

Of course it is still better to have a not so accurate presetting system than non at all. I stated that in my first post.

But if one wants to get down to say a set up of 50 impressions, one needs to solve more of the problems that exist. 25 years ago, we ran computer simulations to show that that level was possible and practical if one was running at the same standard densities.

Any improvement is better than nothing for sure. Satisfaction kills innovation.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

50 sheets looks like an Anicolor to me

 

[Deleted member 16349]

50 sheets looks like an Anicolor to me

Anicolor is about 20 sheets, they say. I have no reason to not believe that. Good example that shows the potential of lithographic offset.

Our computer simulation was done based on a Chambon web press roller train.

We also did a simulation on a press design which had a single form roller (not fed by an anilox roller). Marginally better than the Chambon simulation in getting to in tolerance density but it was much better in evenness of print around the cylinder.

 

[gordo]

[SNIP]
But if one wants to get down to say a set up of 50 impressions, one needs to solve more of the problems that exist. 25 years ago, we ran computer simulations to show that that level was possible and practical if one was running at the same standard densities.

Remembering, of course, that 8 years ago the idea of ink densities - let alone standard ink densities - was tossed into the print industry's bin of historically no longer relevant metrics. ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Remembering, of course, that 8 years ago the idea of ink densities - let alone standard ink densities - was tossed into the print industry's bin of historically no longer relevant metrics. ;-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

LOL

The print industry experts are not stupid. But they are not smart either. They are just mediocre thinkers. Of course not you Gordon, you are an exception.

They run off thinking something new is going to be better without any idea of where it leads. Don't get me started.

 

[pressman81]

Thanks all of you for your reply. So I understand that most of the Pre-set success is on the accurancy of the press. Let's suppose that all the mechanichal setup on the web press is fine, How many sheets I might need for the job? 50 could be achiavable?

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Thanks all of you for your reply. So I understand that most of the Pre-set success is on the accurancy of the press. Let's suppose that all the mechanichal setup on the web press is fine, How many sheets I might need for the job? 50 could be achiavable?

When I stated 50 impressions, that was for a hypothetical press that had been redesigned. For actual presses in good shape, it might be a few hundred impressions on average. Just a guess. Others on the forum should have a better guess on the amount.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

A couple of questions. What type of inking system is fitted to your web presses? is it manually set ink keys/sliders or is it a remote system with electronically controlled ink keys? Is your web blanket to blanket and how many print units. Do you currently have some form of ink key maintenance program in place.
see you are wanting some form of software that gives you a chart of where to set the ink keys manually, Do you have a CTP system where you could generate a CIP3 preset file as this in my opinion would be your best bang for your buck if you have a remote electronic system.
Web press savings are a bit harder to calculate as there are far more things going on than on a sheetfed press (press length, Dryer length and start up , folders and sheeters, quality expectations) you get my point. What is your current makeready count and what reduction would you be looking for.
Cheers