Nanographic Printing Technology from Benny Landa

[Deleted member 16349]

Several questions answered here:

Thanks, it provides an interesting view of this process and the stages of development it is in.

 

[tmiller_iluvprinting]

If all press manufactures got the same technology, then we are back in the same place where one group of press manufacturers will not have a competitive advantage over the others. Interesting.

Exactly, with Landa's consumables being used by all.........

-Todd

 

[lfelton]

I agree. Potentially it could kill some digital press products.

I'm probably not following you correctly, but why would this kill off digital press manufacturers more than litho press manufacturers? It seems to me that the only part of a litho press that would be reused would be the paper transport. In very approximate terms, everything else is junked, no? In fact, Mr Landa says himself that this is the only press technology that they buy in for their own machines. I'm not denigrating the paper transport BTW.

As a business manager, I don't yet see why this makes any part of a current generation digital press obsolete. Maybe in financial terms, but we have no data yet to evaluate.

We run both litho and digital presses and don't have quality issues with digital printing any more. You'd be extremely hard pressed to differentiate the two except in specific circumstances. We don't really have "speed" issues either, we just buy more capacity as we need it.

Digital press manufacturers appear to make approaching 90% gross margin on the hardware they manufacture. It is a huge cash cow for them, what would force them to walk away from that?

For me, the only clear benefit that I can see so far is a cold (and waterless) paper path. This is potentially a very big advantage over "hot" toner machines.

From what Mr Landa says, you could infer that this technology may offer some other potential advantages, for example:
- a wider colour gamut compared to standard CMYK
- energy saving

but of course this is conjecture at this point.

It sounds fascinating, I'm looking forward to more information at Drupa.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Exactly, with Landa's consumables being used by all.........

-Todd

Some thoughts.

Besides the consumables (ink and blankets) cash flow model, there is also talk of click charges.

The nano ink is half as thick as conventional offset but maybe it will cost more than two times the price.

The nano inks are said to have higher densities than conventional offset and a larger gamut. Does that cause some problems with printers trying to print to existing standards? I am not a fan of the existing restrictive standard approach to printing but those in the printing industry that want to print to a standard might have concerns.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I'm probably not following you correctly, but why would this kill off digital press manufacturers more than litho press manufacturers?

We don't really have "speed" issues either, we just buy more capacity as we need it.

Landa has stated that his technology will not replace offset for mid to long run work. So he is saying it will not replace conventional offset completely.

Your statement that you don't have speed issues because you address that with buying more capacity is a problem. As I see it, it comes down to cost. If it cost less to just buy more capacity, then that is good. If a new technology lowers cost significantly, then buying more existing technology might just get you deeper in trouble.

I don't know the answers to the cost question but no matter how great the technology might be, cost is going to be a big factor.

 

[chevalier]

@lfelton
I assume you work in the commercial litho market. Digital hasn't been a realistic option to most of us in the short-medium length packaging market due to substrate and CMYK only limitations. These machines seem like they really might open the door wide open to us.

@erik
I am curious about the quality aspect. I would hate to have a job normally produced with nanography moved to an offset press due to increased order quantity that cannot achieve the same results. For my customers it is a really big deal that runs be consistent.

I would bet the ink cost and speed is the factor making this less competitive for medium-long run lengths.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

@erik
I am curious about the quality aspect. I would hate to have a job normally produced with nanography moved to an offset press due to increased order quantity that cannot achieve the same results. For my customers it is a really big deal that runs be consistent.

There are many definitions of quality. If something looks more impressive, one might say that it has higher quality. That is a perception. From a manufacturing view, I think of quality as a result that hits closely the desired target and has low variability.

If one hits a desired target with the Landa technology or the conventional offset technology, one should not be able to see the difference (at some distance). It is when one runs outside the normal gamut that I would see a problem but is running to that increased gamut hitting a target or is it going past the target.

Historically, there has not been too much interest about printing with greater gamuts in offset but it can be done. Use stronger inks and running them to higher densities is one way.

Waterless is supposed to have higher quality (perception) but there has not been such an interest to use it due to the costs.

For quite a while there have been printing processes that could give the perceptive higher quality but they have not been used that much. Deming has stated something like, quality provided should just meet the expectations of the customer, but not more. Giving more is a waste.

I agree with what you have stated. Customers are very interested in predictability and consistency and I would guess cost too.

 

[damfino]

Hard to figure how existing presses could be retrofitted.(Click to enlarge). Looks like just one blanket...

 

[chevalier]

Hard to figure how existing presses could be retrofitted.(Click to enlarge). Looks like just one blanket...

I don't see how a existing press can be retrofitted. I figure the idea is that the Landa branded machines will use Komori mechanics. Landa is likely to also license the engine technology (ink ejectors, transfer belt, and blanket parameters) to other vendors to build their own platforms using their own mechanics (perfectors, etc.).

 

[UK Printer]

Does anyone have any information on the cost of these machines? I'm going on Friday but am really interested to know more.

Hopefully it won't e the ridiculous pricing other inkjet sheetfed machines have been priced at, i think the FUJI jet press at over a million, for a simplex machine that can only print up to 300gsm takes the biscuit!!

Anyways, all very exciting. If this technology is what it seems to be it will change the industry forever!!

Tim

 

[prwhite]

Does anyone have any information on the cost of these machines? I'm going on Friday but am really interested to know more."

There's no pricing information yet, but here's an interesting interview at drupa with Benny, talking about the technology.
Benny Landa's Revolutionary Return to Printing - WhatTheyThink

 

[Al Ferrari]

What polymer?

What polymer?

In the PrintWeek interview, in the second paragraph in answering the question beginning with "You say Nanography uses ‘ink ejectors’ ..., Landa states:

"All you have left is the pigment and the polymer. It’s an ultra-thin layer of polymeric film."

This is after just having explained that only pigments and water are ejected on to the heated blanket.

Later, several paragraphs down he says "Our inks are innocuous. We use food grade materials that are compatible for packaging."

So where is the polymer coming from?

Al

 

[chevalier]

So where is the polymer coming from?

It is my lay understanding that water based inks typically use acrylic polymers.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

In the PrintWeek interview, in the second paragraph in answering the question beginning with "You say Nanography uses ‘ink ejectors’ ..., Landa states:

"All you have left is the pigment and the polymer. It’s an ultra-thin layer of polymeric film."

This is after just having explained that only pigments and water are ejected on to the heated blanket.

Later, several paragraphs down he says "Our inks are innocuous. We use food grade materials that are compatible for packaging."

So where is the polymer coming from?

Al

Hi Al. Polymer just refers to a chain of molecules or monomers. Landa has stated that it is a water based polymer and I am guessing that when these particles are so small, they will bond together in chains or some kind of lattice when the water evaporates. Maybe with the help of some other additives.

 

[Joe Duffy]

In the PrintWeek interview, in the second paragraph in answering the question beginning with "You say Nanography uses ‘ink ejectors’ ..., Landa states:

"All you have left is the pigment and the polymer. It’s an ultra-thin layer of polymeric film."

This is after just having explained that only pigments and water are ejected on to the heated blanket.

Later, several paragraphs down he says "Our inks are innocuous. We use food grade materials that are compatible for packaging."

So where is the polymer coming from?

Al

Felt same way after reading... described it as similar to a removable tattoo, almost like an adhesive film but later talked of it being on the blanket and transfered to the paper...

I really want to see this so I hope it will have a showing in the US at Graph Expo.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Hi Al. Polymer just refers to a chain of molecules or monomers. Landa has stated that it is a water based polymer and I am guessing that when these particles are so small, they will bond together in chains or some kind of lattice when the water evaporates. Maybe with the help of some other additives.

Hi Erik,

I had a chemistry life before my printing life, and know quite well the meaning of the term polymer. To qualify, the link between the monomeric units needs to be a genuine chemical bond, not simple static attraction.

My post is intended to encourage us all to read these interviews of Landa and articles about Nanography critically.

Al

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hi Erik,

I had a chemistry life before my printing life, and know quite well the meaning of the term polymer. To qualify, the link between the monomeric units needs to be a genuine chemical bond, not simple static attraction.

My post is intended to encourage us all to read these interviews of Landa and articles about Nanography critically.

Al

Al, your chemistry knowledge is probably much better than mine. Didn't like it much.

What are chemical bonds? I tended to think they were related to differences in charge.

I find the explanation for Landa's technology fascinating but the real understanding is in the details of the nano physics and that I am not able to grasp too well.

I am taking some time to collect my thoughts on this technology and am also seeing that Landa is not alone with new approaches. Xeikon seems to be in the game too and it would not surprise me that others will come out with new ideas.

 

[Green Printer]

Landa's application is unique. Water extration before application then heat fuse it to the sheet. This is very well thought out combo technology. Inkjet to a moving belt, also used in xerography, extra the water on the warm or hot belt, fuse the ink to sheet same as xerography or indigo.


Nano pigments are getting to be somewhat common.
A few nano ink and nano pigment suppliers.

JETCOLOUR-pigments and pigment dispersion for inkjet inks,sublimation inks,UV curable inks,coatings,masterbatches,etc.

ECO ink|ECO solvent ink|pigment for ECO ink|pigment for ECO solvent ink|pigment for solvent ink jet

Diversified Nano Corporation

Nano pigment paste--Suzhou Sunway Dyes & Chemical Co., Ltd.
eXpand Systems, LLC - Welcome :. Digital printing, Digital solutions Ink, Nano Pigment for DTG market
Zhuhai Colourful Pigment Co. Ltd, Colour Chip, Pigment Paste, Pigment

 

[Al Ferrari]

"What are chemical bonds?"

The last thing I wanted was for someone to ask me that in this setting. Entire libraries cover this topic, and it is dealt with in the first undergraduate courses of general chemistry and organic chemistry in the field. In a nutshell (or a nano shell) it goes something like this: atoms are joined into molecules by the mutual interaction of some of the electrons of the participating atoms so that they become molecular electrons. That is to say (in a very simplistic conceptual model of a molecule) the electrons of a chemical bond are under the influence of both of the nuclei of the atoms forming that bond.

PLEASE do not ask me further about this. I have left that former life behind, and wish I had not even mentioned it in that earlier post.

Going forward with graphic arts...

Al

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Landa's application is unique. Water extration before application then heat fuse it to the sheet. [/url]

I understand the claim is that it is not a heat fuse method but just pressed onto the substrate. The nano ink is claimed to have high adhesion to materials without heat or substrate surface treatment. Don't know if this is totally true or dependable but that seems to be Landa's claim.

I am curious to see how this affects your concerns about deinking.

I am also curious as to whether the final printed ink is water soluble and will run when wet? Could someone spit on a print sample to find out?