Using of oil based inks on AB Dick 9840

[Rowenf]

Hi

I'm new to the printing industry and purchased an ABDick 9840 2 years ago. The machine is in excellent nick and I enjoy thouroughly what I'm doing. I have been using Van Son's VS162 black ink since purchasing the machine and have done quite well with it. The ink is however 4 times more expensive in my country (South Africa) than the oil based Van Son's ink. I have experimented with oil based inks (Not Van Son's) previously and got very bad results. I could not prevent scumming. I was told that Van Sons oil based inks is of the best quality but I am still reluctant to use it. What would be the best formula to use in my water tray if I use Van Sons oil base?

Is there anyone-one out there that have tried it?

By the way: Madiba's birthday was magnificent here. I did my 67 minutes, did you?

 

[brycesteiner]

Hello Rowenf,

I'm not sure there are too many 'true' oil based inks out there, but none the less, a lot of good inks are there and even better now that they are a "hybrid".

I use Gans on a 9850 it considered a stay open "oil base". It will scum over after a couple of days.

Are you still using the original water system? Do you use alcohol now? Do you use RO or distilled water for your mix?

If you are using a Kompac or Crestline I would go a little more on the acid (4.5) and no alcohol. If you are using the original water system you might need to go up to 25% alcohol. To either mix I add a half of teaspoon of white vinegar per quart. It easily brings the acid down to where I need it without use a whole bunch of fountain concentrate (too much fountain concentrate seems to cause me emulsification problems).

 

[Rowenf]

Hi Brycesteiner

Yes I believe that I am still using the original water system: rubber roller ontop of a copper roller, copper roller in a tray of water. I am going to try the alcohol and vinegar sugestions of you and let you know. I am totally new to the industry and will appreciate any information or help. Again, thank you very much! Your advise is really appreciated! God Bless. (Could you please explain the Kompac an Crestline systems?)

 

[brycesteiner]

The Kompac and Crestline are both continuous dampening systems and not integrated into the inking system (with a separate form roller). It's good because you should have less toning and ink emulsification. But I have heard some people say they love the original system.
The OEM water system is removed and replaced with either of the above. Both can work well. The nice thing about them is they are easy to run with little knowledge. The ABDick system takes skill and I know I don't know everything about it. I've run Conventional, Kompac, Crestline, Komorimatics, but never the Alcohol system until this month. It seems to run okay now though.
Good luck!

 

[Rowenf]

Hi Brycesteiner
Thanks again for the information.

Have a great day!!

 

[Rocknronny]

Hi Brycesteiner

Yes I believe that I am still using the original water system: rubber roller ontop of a copper roller, copper roller in a tray of water. I am going to try the alcohol and vinegar sugestions of you and let you know. I am totally new to the industry and will appreciate any information or help. Again, thank you very much! Your advise is really appreciated! God Bless. (Could you please explain the Kompac an Crestline systems?)

I run a 9810 with a t51 and a kompac with speedking oil inks. If you have a copper ducter you have a very old system and should consider changing it. Look into the cost of getting a kompac over the crestline and you can run any ink you wish.

Good Luck!

RR

 

[Robilious]

The only physical difference between "Oil Based Inks" and "Rubber Based Inks": "Rubber Based Inks" are "Oil Based Inks" without "driers" added to them. As a result, they dry through absorbtion into the paper stock. So, they wont work well on "Coated Papers". "Oil Based" Inks have driers added. As a result, they dry by absorbsion as well as oxidation, and can successfully be used for coated and uncoated papers. However, "Oil Based Inks" will "skin" if left on press or exposed to the air for extended periods of time.

Both inks are made from (usually) vegetable based oils. Rubber Based Ink is called "Rubber Based" because, due to the lack of Driers, they will not "skin" on your Rubber (or poly, metal, etc.) Press Rollers.

Been to VanSon in Hilversum Neatherlands, and this holds true for most other Brands too. Use the Same fountain solution you are comfortable with.

 

[Rowenf]

Thanks Robilious

I will experiment with it. If you have any more info, I will highly appreciate it. That oil based inks available here causes scumming, if used with same fountain solution. However the VanSon product is available and I will try that.

Rowen

 

[Robilious]

Why does the ink cause "Scumming"? Are you using metal (aluminum) printing plates? Polyester Printing Plates? Paper Printing Plates? What fountain solution product are you using? (Brand Name?) What mixture are you using? Are you running with Tap water? Well Water? Are you running with Alcohol? Have you checked your roller settings?

These answers will help.

I don't know if the attachment I am attempting to post will be accepted? If so, please have a look at it. Your answers to your problem reside within it......

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Inks for Small Offset Presses

Inks for Small Offset Presses

Hello fellow Lithographers and "Smudgers of Ink on Paper"

I hope you will find it of interest and value ??? - some PDFs


Regards, Alois

 

[mbprintsolutions]

Scumming???

Scumming???

Scumming is caused by one thing alone..... oxidation of the plate.
If using metals, then apply etch, followed by gum arabic to desensitise.
If using polyester or silver master then etch to desensitise.
A common mistake is that any contamination of the open area, wether by tinting, incorrect chemistry, or "catch up" is referred to as "scumming".
Catch-up is an inbalance of ink to dampening, even with an original aquamatic unit, either oil based or rubber based should run fine. But this is a fine balancing act.
If the polyester plate is running dirty with oil based ink I would reccomend the following:

Before inking up:
Clean the brass aquamatic roller with Brasso, then desensitise with blue etch.
Ink up the press, but do not over ink, if you can hear the ink splitting on the rollers its over inked!
Mix fount whilst ink is milling on the press, make sure ink is off and press is running in inking position on single lever. Mix fount at lower ratio than reccomended unless its specifically for Polyester plates.
Add fount bottle to the unit, less is more with regards concentration of fount,adding alcohol or concentrate will increase evaporation and therefore require higher volume to clear plate, this will then contaminate the ink system.
Ink the aquamatic up with fount in the unit, set control about halfway, then drop back to around a quarter.
Always dampen the dry plate with either blue etch/water or fount/water upon initial start up or after stopping for make ready adjustments.

The desired scenario is to run as little dampening as necessary, water is a necessary ill to the litho process. Too much dampening or excessive concentrate and the results will show as either water droplets beading in ink train, ink building up on form rollers,emulsification, and catch up. The water on form rollers causes poor transfer to the plate image, if the ink is increased to overcome the light image the plate will catch up. If the dampening is reduced instead and the plate catches up reduce concentration of fount. This will slow the evaporation, hence increasing the wetting without huge volumes of fount invading the ink train.

The 2 main constituents of a fount:
Alcohol which controls the wetting by evaporation
Glycol/glycerine which lowers the surface tension of the non image area.

Therefore in summary, if you need to add anything to improve the wetting properties of the solution, Glycerine or failing this simply more water.

Sorry for going on, but scumming is a rare ocurrence these days as metals are rarely used on the AB Dicks, and is usually as a result of not gumming up the plate before storage.

Before I get a barrage of corrections from various web based dictionaries of printing terms, I know its widely accepted to refer any background contamination as scumming, even by Ink manufacturers, but distinguishing between the many causes is made more difficult if they are banded together under a single term.

 

[imp_lapaz]

Hi

I'm new to the printing industry and purchased an ABDick 9840 2 years ago. The machine is in excellent nick and I enjoy thouroughly what I'm doing. I have been using Van Son's VS162 black ink since purchasing the machine and have done quite well with it. The ink is however 4 times more expensive in my country (South Africa) than the oil based Van Son's ink. I have experimented with oil based inks (Not Van Son's) previously and got very bad results. I could not prevent scumming. I was told that Van Sons oil based inks is of the best quality but I am still reluctant to use it. What would be the best formula to use in my water tray if I use Van Sons oil base?

Is there anyone-one out there that have tried it?

By the way: Madiba's birthday was magnificent here. I did my 67 minutes, did you?

Hi Rowenf,
I'm Angelica from Mexico... I will appreciate if you can provide me some help.. our company recently bought an AB Dick 9840 and I need to find a user's guide or a manual.

Where can I obtain one?

Thanks you in advanced,

Angelica Martinez

USER: imp_lapaz
Baja California Sur (Mexico)

 

[CostaRicaPrinter]

Oil base ink on standard aquamatic

Oil base ink on standard aquamatic

Hello Rowenf,

We have several AB Dick's with the standard aquamatic system that you have, and you can print either rubber base inks or oil base inks with them. HOWEVER, there are some factors that you need to know.

1) Many new oil based inks for large presses are too "liquidy", that is too thin, and WILL NOT WORK. AB Dick made their own oil base ink, and you needed a carving knife to scoop it out of the can! So you need to find a very heavy bodied oil based ink. I think some of the Van Son oil base ink is heavy, as are some others made for duplicators. You can purchase a heavy bodied "varnish" that will stiffen ink up.

2) What plates are you using? Paper plates are not too friendly to oil based inks. You can do a good job with the polyester plates made on a laser printer, or metal plates.

3) Fountain solution makes a big difference on the Aquamatic system. I use the AB Dick 1115 for about everything, and it works great. Don't need too much. Too much solution is not good. Sometimes we can run straight water.

4) DO NOT USE ALCOHOL in the standard aquamatic system. It doesn't help at all, and just emulsifies the ink.

All this having been said, if you are printing on porous paper, rubber base ink is better. If you need to print on glossy stock, then you need the oil based ink.

Good luck!

Bill G.