CS6 PMS Values in CMYK vs CS5 PMS Values in CMYK

[David Milisock]

>There is NO CONVERSION to CMYK taking place in InDesign or in Acrobat/Reader
Then in the case where various placed EPS PDF from different versions of (say Illustrator or CorelDRAW) into inDesign could convert to different CMYK values, correct?

 

[David Milisock]

>Anyway, the final spot composite alternate colour of say a PDF exported out of InDesign should be whatever build the first colour in the colour palette contained... If the colour was in the palette before importing graphics, that would be the colour model and alternate colour build.
Assuming all the same color from the same pallet are spelled identically?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

>Assuming all the same color from the same pallet are spelled identically?

Correct, which is why I originally wrote:

"Of course, all spots from all programs should have the exact same spelling, otherwise spot colours will need to be remapped or aliased to a single spot colour."


Stephen Marsh

 

[David Milisock]

>Correct, which is why I originally wrote:

"Of course, all spots from all programs should have the exact same spelling, otherwise spot colours will need to be remapped or aliased to a single spot colour."

I guess we all need good luck with that!

 

[Stephen Marsh]

>
I guess we all need good luck with that!

Agreed David, being provided with good art files may not be the norm!

Stephen Marsh

 

[leonardr]

Anyway, the final spot composite alternate colour of say a PDF exported out of InDesign should be whatever build the first colour in the colour palette contained... If the colour was in the palette before importing graphics, that would be the colour model and alternate colour build. If there was no spot in the colour list, then the very first imported graphic would populate the colour list with the spot colour model and build. All further images with the same spot colour would then use the first colour populated in the list as the final build of say an exported PDF. On screen in InDesign, two different files using the same spot colour value may have two different composite colour appearances/builds, however they will both output to the same separation and the final PDF export from InDesign will have the colour model and build of the first spot colour to be created/imported into InDesign.

AFAIK, the spots in placed PDFs (or EPSs) are NOT remapped during "normal" PDF export - they would be left alone. So if you had CMYK-based alternates in the original and then exported, you would still have CMYK-based alternates. Also, if you have different spots of the same name, they will also be left alone.

HOWEVER, if you are exporting to PDF/X (any flavor), THEN we will remap (and consolidate) the Spots due to the PDF/X rules.

 

[leonardr]

>There is NO CONVERSION to CMYK taking place in InDesign or in Acrobat/Reader
Then in the case where various placed EPS PDF from different versions of (say Illustrator or CorelDRAW) into inDesign could convert to different CMYK values, correct?

Do you mean an actual conversion of Spot->Process/CMYK? OR just a change to the ALTERNATE color associated with the spot?

The former will NEVER happen in our products UNLESS you explicitly choose to do it (via the Ink Manager, Color Convert, Preflight, etc.)

The latter CAN HAPPEN if you are creating a PDF/X file from AI/ID/Acrobat, as PDF/X has specific rules about names & alternates of spots - so in that case, we will do various things to your spots including changing Lab->CMYK, picking one alternate, consolidating spot names, etc.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

AFAIK, the spots in placed PDFs (or EPSs) are NOT remapped during "normal" PDF export - they would be left alone. So if you had CMYK-based alternates in the original and then exported, you would still have CMYK-based alternates. Also, if you have different spots of the same name, they will also be left alone.

HOWEVER, if you are exporting to PDF/X (any flavor), THEN we will remap (and consolidate) the Spots due to the PDF/X rules.

Thanks Leonard, I will test and post back, I am no longer in day to day production so my memory can sometimes lead me astray!

EDIT - Of course, things were deeper than I remembered them!

Test 1: Photoshop DCS2 file with RGB alternate colour, placed into an ID file with no spots in the colour palette, exported as Press Quality PDF = Alternate Colour is now CMYK, so there was a conversion for an RGB spot colour definition. The colour imported into ID with a default of a CMYK colour build definition and exported with the same.

Test 2: Photoshop DCS2 file with L*a*b* alternate colour, placed into an ID file with no spots in the colour palette, exported as Press Quality PDF = Alternate Colour is now CMYK, so there was a conversion for an L*a*b* spot colour definition. The colour imported into ID with a default of a CMYK colour build definition and exported with the same.

Test 3: Illustrator Native file with L*a*b* alternate colour, placed into an ID file with no spots in the colour palette, exported as Press Quality PDF = Alternate Colour is now CMYK, so there was a conversion for an RGB spot colour definition. The colour imported into ID was L*a*b* colour build and exported with CMYK build.

Test 4: As above in Test 3, however the PDF export was set to no colour conversion. The resulting PDF colour build was exported with L*a*b* alternate spot colour build values.

Test 5: llustrator Native file with L*a*b* alternate colour, placed into an ID file with an existing RGB alternate build spot colour of the same name. PDF export was set to no colour conversion. The L*a*b* alternate colour build in the PDF is now RGB, not L*a*b* - even though the export was set to no conversion, the pre-existing spot colour alternate build changed the alternate colour build.

Test 6: Photoshop DCS2 file with RGB alternate colour, placed into an ID file with an existing L*a*b* alternate build spot colour of the same name. exported as Press Quality PDF set to no colour conversion = Alternate Colour is now L*a*b*, so there was a conversion for an RGB spot colour definition. So the DCS colour was ignored and the ID colour was used instead.

Conclusion: things are a lot messier than I remembered them to be!

If one uses consistent file formats, consistent spot colour names, consistent spot colour builds, pre-populates ID with the desired colour name and build and also exports with the desired setting (convert or no colour conversion)...then the results will become predictable with a little bit of experience and experimentation, which is how I remembered them to be when I was building my own files.


Stephen Marsh

 

[David Milisock]

>we will do various things to your spots including changing Lab->CMYK, picking one alternate, consolidating spot names, etc
Things can get sticky thanks for the infor I'll test when I get time.

The question I uess I was not real good at asking is this multipe sources of the same spot color (specifically sources that use different CMYK values for this same spot as AI 8, CS, CS5) when place into ID CS6 as spot color PDF and or EPS, then published to PDF with a conversion to CMYK. Is the conversion guided by the placed EPS/PDF or by ID6.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

David, it is really getting down to specifics. As shown in my quick and simple test, results vary depending on many factors. I think that you are going to have specify:

Exactly how the PDF is generated from ID, what PDF export setting? If it is not an out of the box default setting, then what are the various colour options - no conversion, convert to destination, convert to destination [preserve numbers]. What is the file format from Illustrator? Is it EPS, PDF or native AI? What is the alternate colour build model in Illustrator, it sounds like it is CMYK? Does the AI generated file include spot colour graphics from Photoshop? Does the ID document have the colour in it before importing any spot colour graphics of the same spot colour spelling?

As you said, you will have to test this - and the results of one test may differ wildly from another test due to the many variables and complexities being discussed.


Stephen Marsh

 

[leonardr]

Conclusion: things are a lot messier than I remembered them to be!

Not really.

IF you tell InDesign to color convert things, then it will color convert BOTH object colors AND their alternates.

If you tell InDesign to leave things alone, that means both object colors and their alternates.

IF you tell InDesign to make a PDF/X compliant file, then it will do so by whatever means are necessary (including color conversions, spot renaming, etc.).

 

[leonardr]

The question I uess I was not real good at asking is this multipe sources of the same spot color (specifically sources that use different CMYK values for this same spot as AI 8, CS, CS5) when place into ID CS6 as spot color PDF and or EPS, then published to PDF with a conversion to CMYK. Is the conversion guided by the placed EPS/PDF or by ID6.

Following my rules in the previous post...

IF you tell InDesign to convert colors as part of the export to PDF, then it will do so.

IF you are creating a "normal" PDF, then we don't merge or consolidate the spots in any way.

IF you are creating a PDF/X file, then we will do whatever we have to do in order to have it comply with the standard.

 

[David Milisock]

>we don't merge or consolidate the spots in any way.
The question still being will a spot color form AI 8 and AI CS6 placed into InDesign when converted convert differently due to conversion imformation embedded inthe PDf or EPS?

 

[leonardr]

The question still being will a spot color form AI 8 and AI CS6 placed into InDesign when converted convert differently due to conversion imformation embedded inthe PDf or EPS?

Yes, if the original files have different values then those values will be carried through in "normal" PDF - we will NOT change it.

ONLY IF you create a PDF/X file, will we consolidate the alternative values.

 

[rwillustrator]

Sorry I didn't discover this thread earlier. Just stumbled upon it.

The original issue that was raised in this thread is valid -- and is due to a decision that the Illustrator team made for CS6.

Open any document in Illustrator, and from the flyout menu in the Swatches panel, choose Spot Colors. The resulting dialog box shows two option -- LAB and CMYK. In all versions prior to CS6, the default setting was CMYK. In CS6, Adobe changed this to LAB.

The reason for this is that with LAB color definitions, you'll see more accurate depictions of the colors in composite proofs and on screen. The danger is that if you choose to convert your spot colors to process, you're getting a LAB > CMYK conversion and not the CMYK book values.

While "technically", Adobe is correct in assuming that designers really shouldn't be using the Solid Pantone library for choosing PMS colors that will eventually be converted to CMYK later in the workflow (they should be using the Pantone Color Bridge for that), Adobe is equally incorrect in assuming that designers actually DO the correct behavior.

The pros of this decision is that composite proofs and on-screen proofing is far more accurate. The cons of this decision is that you run the risk of color shifts when converting Solid PMS colors to process (either in Illustrator, InDesign, Acrobat, etc).

Mordy

 

[David Milisock]

Sorry I didn't discover this thread earlier. Just stumbled upon it.

The original issue that was raised in this thread is valid -- and is due to a decision that the Illustrator team made for CS6.

Open any document in Illustrator, and from the flyout menu in the Swatches panel, choose Spot Colors. The resulting dialog box shows two option -- LAB and CMYK. In all versions prior to CS6, the default setting was CMYK. In CS6, Adobe changed this to LAB.

The reason for this is that with LAB color definitions, you'll see more accurate depictions of the colors in composite proofs and on screen. The danger is that if you choose to convert your spot colors to process, you're getting a LAB > CMYK conversion and not the CMYK book values.

While "technically", Adobe is correct in assuming that designers really shouldn't be using the Solid Pantone library for choosing PMS colors that will eventually be converted to CMYK later in the workflow (they should be using the Pantone Color Bridge for that), Adobe is equally incorrect in assuming that designers actually DO the correct behavior.

The pros of this decision is that composite proofs and on-screen proofing is far more accurate. The cons of this decision is that you run the risk of color shifts when converting Solid PMS colors to process (either in Illustrator, InDesign, Acrobat, etc).

Mordy

I believe Adobe was forced to do this, Corel did this 3 years ago. Yes conversions aremore accurate but in my opinion the best reason for this is that this should be the final move. These conversion specs have changed so often that there was a need for a final target LAB is the best choice, still the transitions have been painful!

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Nobody mentioned that both Pantone and CMYK are device & substrate dependent. But we're all assuming that… yes?

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

AFAIK, the spots in placed PDFs (or EPSs) are NOT remapped during "normal" PDF export - they would be left alone. So if you had CMYK-based alternates in the original and then exported, you would still have CMYK-based alternates. Also, if you have different spots of the same name, they will also be left alone.

HOWEVER, if you are exporting to PDF/X (any flavor), THEN we will remap (and consolidate) the Spots due to the PDF/X rules.

Actually not entirely true. If you place one PDF with a red square called "My Colour" and then a second PDF/EPS with "My Colour" where this time it is green both will be red in the PDF, but if you print on a non PDF/PS compatible printer you will get your original colours (unless simulating overprint). I can send a file if you like