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Determining Creep amount in Preps

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  • Determining Creep amount in Preps

    Hey Folks,

    I've got a 60 pager, saddlestitched job. I was hoping someone might have a simple formula for applying creep in Preps. It's printed on 70# text (not sure if some of the pages have bleed, cause the client hasn't sent me the files yet).

    I'm using Preps 5.2 with PDF's ripped through EVO. Trueflow used to have a guide for creep based on # of pages and paper thickness. Anyone know of something like that for Preps.

    Oh, and here's the kicker. Client is designing this job entirely in Corel Draw! Lord help me!

    Any input would be appreciated!

  • #2
    Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

    This is the formula I know:
    Total number of pages divided by four. Multiply the quotient by the paper thickness and the product is your creep amount. I believe you'd want to enter this into the "inner" creep field and if you want to use inner and outer put half the creep amount in each.


    • #3
      Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

      When you say total number of pages:
      If my book is to be 11x17 saddle stitched, that says each 11x17 sheet is 4 "reading" pages. So if I have fifteen 11x17 pages, that's 60 pages to the reader, but it's 30 physical pages. So when determining my creep, in QI Plus, my total number of pages would be 30, correct?
      Another more relevant question: For fifteen 11x17 pages, will creep even be an issue; such a thin book...


      • #4
        Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

        That method is based on the number of pages rather than the number of leaves the book has, so 60 in your example. As a (very) general rule, saddle stitch books above 16 pages using stock .004" or thicker would benefit from creep adjustment. Depending on the layout of the book, it might not be necessary. That is, if there is not consistant artwork out the the thumb of the page, creep may not be noticed. But when there is a consistant margin of .375" or .5" or folios out by the thumb, the inner pages will reveal the page creep. One great way to predict what will happen is simply to saddle stich a dummy book with the same stock as the project will print on and observe the amout of creep happening with the inner pages.


        • #5
          Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

          I don't fully understand.. How can I even measure the thickness of the paper? It's "paper thin" :^0 If the printer says they're using 20 lb paper for the pages, is there a corresponding thickness I can use for that weight?


          • #6
            Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

            A micrometer is usually used to measure paper thickness. 20lb stock is around .004". You may be able to find a general guide for paper types/basis weights/thicknesses through the GATF, PIA, PINE or one of the technical universities.
            If you are not the printer, why do you need to know? Push that responsibility to them. If you/they are using Preps, this method should suffice but of course some adjustments still may need to be made. A dummy book made from the printing stock will illustrate clearly what's happening with creep.


            • #7
              Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

              Thanks Dan for your input. The dummy I made measures out as 1.3ml. With a ruler, in inches it appears to be a little over 1/16th (.0625) So, according to Preps, in the Layout Details I would type in .0625 in the Inner amount and this would be applied (Overall or, averaged out) to the inside pages. Sound Right?

              Again, as you said, depending on what these pages actually contain may dictate whether or not I even need to be concerned with creep at all. Meaning, if I have wide margins on the thumbs, without bleed, perhaps no consideration is necessary. Of course for saddle stitched jobs with pages that exceed say, 100 pages or more, creep may be essential.

              Also, one other question. What about a variable such as a centerfold. How would applying creep affect that. If the image was ripped from two separate pages, could there possibly be some underlapping in the image?
              Just a thought.

              Thanks again everyone for the input. Great to see this kind of response!


              • #8
                Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                From memory, you should apply the measurement only by half, because it applies on both inner pages.
                So if, eg 1.5 is the creep you want compensate, you have to put .75 on the inner creep
                Try to print the centrespread and see what happens


                • #9
                  Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                  Crossovers will be affected by creep, how much depends on the creep amount and the location of the pages in the signature. The centerfold will show the greatest (total) amount of creep. The nature of the art/image crossing over may or may not reveal the underlapping. The only way I know to compensate, if necessary, is in the page layout.

                  When you look at it, what that formula is really saying is to take the number of leaves and multiply by paper thickness.

                  In a 16pg sig., the 7,8,9,10 leaf will get a certain creep amount. The 5,6,11,12 leaf will get a different amount. Again, based on the visual result of creep, a crossover from p6 to p7 needing adjustment will have differing amounts of compensation required.



                  • #10
                    Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                    O.K. Dan, Now you have me thinking... Lets say your layout features one static image as a centerfold, say, an 11x17 spread. Would you have to apply creep, print all of the sigs EXCEPT the one that contains the centerfold, go back, take the creep OFF, then print the sig WITH the centerfold?

                    Don't mean to be a pest. Just wondering.

                    Any thoughts?


                    • #11
                      Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                      You can manually override creep settings in template pages by selecting the page(s), using "Get Info"**and going to Additional Settings from there and set creep to manual/zero.

                      1. This will apply to all sigs where this template is used and there is no outward indication that creep has been changed from the default automatic setting. So, you would want to save this as a separate sig in the template and name it something that identifies it as edited.

                      2. Creep settings affect both front and back of a sig. Eliminating creep from your centerfold will eliminate creep from their backups. Assuming creep was necessary in the first place, this could be detrimental. And if I haven't muddied the waters enough yet, here is a workaround example:

                      You have a 16pg Saddle Stitch signature (maybe it's one sig. of many or just a 16pg self cover book). The center 8/9 spread is one continuous photo that you cannot allow to creep because it will ruin the spread. The remainder of the sig. however needs creep because the folios are close to the thumb.

                      Create/open your 16pg template. Select the entire sig., copy, paste and give the new sig. a name that indicates creep has been manually set. Set the creep amount for the job.

                      Select page 8 and get info. In info, record x and y position of page and set the page field to 0 where 8 would be. Add an independent page with the same size, position and orientation as page 8 and set the page fields to 8 and 0 instead of 8 and 7. You can go into Additional Settings at this point and set creep to manual/0. Do the same thing for the page 9/10 pair.

                      You will end up with a signature where all pages that need creep will get except for the center 8/9 spread.



                      • #12
                        Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                        Dummy up the 60 pg. by folding 15 leaves of the exact stock to be printed on in half then staple.
                        (preferably get it done by binder)
                        If you dummy it up measure the over hang from pg.1 to pg.30
                        If the binder dummies it up for you trimming it, open to the center and measure from pg.1 to pg. 30
                        either way thats your measurement
                        Enter it in layout details: shingling inner box.

                        If you had a larger book keep in mind that you have to extend bleeds beyond the standard .125's
                        and rip with more than an 1/8 bleed. (depending on your rip)


                        Edited by: Rene Lozada on Nov 15, 2007 7:34 PM


                        • #13
                          Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                          Ah, crossovers!!!

                          I remember there used be a very neat feature in DK&A's InPosition software that told you exactly how much each page had been moved when you applied creep to a job, to 3 decimal places of a mm.

                          It showed as a number on the page thumbnail on-screen and was brilliant because it allowed you to manually move individual objects to counteract overall creep.

                          I've requested it as a new Preps feature on several occasions but to no avail.

                          To help with crossovers you can also move the pages away from the spine before moving them back in by using the *Outer* value too. For example:

                          If you put 2mm in for both Inner and Outer values, all pages are initially moved away from the spine by 2mm then crept back in. This means the pages will be back to their original position by the time you get to the centre spread.

                          FYI, we work out creep by making the dummy, measuring the thickness of HALF THE JOB and inputting that figure as the *Inner* value. I've found measuring the paper with a micrometer and multiplying it to be a little unreliable but it's not bad.


                          • #14
                            Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                            where does it take or add the amount of creep allowed for from - at one time you only had the option to take it out of the spine (a problem for images and text going accross double page spreads) or the foredge where it cut page numbers or images close to the edge off - have they developed a percenatge reduction yet?


                            • #15
                              Re: Determining Creep amount in Preps

                              Outer moves the pages toward the outer edge while Inner moves them toward the spine.

                              The amount is simply based on dividing the thickness by no. of pages, nothing more complicated than that.


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