AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

[CHM]

hi

When Adobe started to put the viewing of transparencies and overprints we where very glade, it started with Acrobat 7 I think. But there was 1 big problem...
To view these overprints you had to 1st change a setting in the preferences to be able to see it. Problem here is we had to invest allot of time and money to explain to our clients, how and where they had to change it.
And to make it worse, Adobe decided to reorganize their preferences panel in ArcobatReader 8, so we had to start instructing clients again.

So now we have Acrobat 9, and i was reading about it and what did i see?
At last Adobe changed the setting to view transparencies and overprints standard! We said at last! So yesterday I downloaded the brand new AcrobatReader 9 and started testing. .....
Our good mood was soon down to 0:=(
I started to open a Illustrator CS3 file saved with compatible pdf file in it, so i was viewing the 1.5 pdf, and overprints where not in overprint in Acrobat. So i went in to look at the settings, and what do i see there? Adobe has chaged thier menu again en now we have 4 choise to choose frome, and standard is set to "Only for PDF/X Files"', I changed the setting to "Automatic" and the file viewed OK.
I did some more tests, like exporting the Illustrator file to pdf with pdf/X setting, again the overprints where only good with the setting put to "Automatic"

Conclusion, this is gonna cost us and others in the industry again lot of time and money to explain to the clients how to set their new AcrobatReader so they can see our files right. And now the problem is more complex, now they can choose between 4 settings:=(

Questions:
- I realy dont get it why there is a choice for the overprint settings? Dont you always want to see the pdf file like it is made, with transparencies and overprints?
- Why Adobe makes it so difficult to change that setting? Most of our clients are not interested to take a look in the preferences panel, and why should they, we are in a world off WYSIWYG.

I know Dov is wandering around here some time, and I am shure he wil be able to give me a nice awnser on this matter:=).
But still, I hope Adobe will change this in the future, would make things lot easier for all of us.

 

[leonardr]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

I cover this issue in great detail in my blog entry at <http://www.acrobatusers.com/blogs/leonardr/2008/06/13/overprint-preview-it-just-works/>.

After you read that, and understand our positioning with this feature for Acrobat 9 - I hope that you will see that these choices are indeed the correct ones for the industry. In addition, I believe that they will help drive the usage of PDF/X when producing documents destined for print (which is also a VERY good thing!)

Leonard Rosenthol
PDF Standards Architect
Adobe Systems

 

[CHM]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

Leonard Rosenthol , thanks for your reply.
But I have a little question stil for you. How is the pdf recognised like a PDF/X, is it only when its made by Acrobat?

 

[leonardr]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

Every PDF/X file has a "flag" (some special metadata) inside of it, as per the standard, that identifies it as being compliant with PDF/X. If Acrobat (or Reader!) sees this flag, it will enter into "PDF/X Viewing Mode" - which sets Acrobat/Reader 9 up to behave according to the rules of the PDF/X standards PLUS turning on OPP. You can tell if Acrobat/Reader 9 consider the file as compliant, as the Standards Panel will appear - see <http://www.acrobatusers.com/blogs/leonardr/2008/06/02/acrobat-9-knows-standards/> for more details.

If you believe that you have a file that is PDF/X compliant but is NOT being seen as such by Acrobat/Reader - please send it to me.

Leonard

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

You invoked my name, but Leonard answered in the meantime.

To be very clear, not all users want / need overprint preview to be on by default either for Reader or full Acrobat. Having the default to use overprint preview "on" for all PDF/X files appeared to be the best compromise at this point and certainly will encourage the print community to use PDF/X for their PDF file usage, especially now that we have new PDF/X versions (PDF/X-4 and PDF/X-5 variants) that aren't transparency and color management brain-dead!

- Dov

 

[Joe]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

Dov,

Can you tell me when and why someone would want to view a PDF inaccurately...ie, with overprint preview turned off? I get hammered by this a lot where the customer is viewing the PDF _*they*_ made with overprint preview turned off, they have some white text set to overprint, and it looks fine on their screen. And of course that's their favorite line too, "it looks okay on my screen, your FTP site must have done something to it". We're not dealing with rocket scientists here.

 

[CHM]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

hi both

Yes i agree completely with you on the PDF/X discussion. But what i dont understand is that Adobe seems to support badly constructed pdf's.
Let me explain, if sombody makes a file and he puts overprint in it he also except it to be viewed in the pdf file, but Acrobat default set to not view this. This seems not very logical to me.

Like i understand Acrobat and Acrobat Reader should view the file like it is, now its interpreting the file and showing us what some expect to see. So not really WYSIWYG.

PS: Dov, maybe I will see you next week in Ghent on the GWG meeting, if there is some time left we could talk about this.

Edited by: Chris Michiels on Jul 5, 2008 10:52 AM

 

[leonardr]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

I'm not Dov - nor do I play him on TV (though I'm been known to do so occasionally on the internet .

The answer to your question is actually a different question...

Why would someone produce a PDF that doesn't incorporate all the necessary components to enable it to be viewed reliably?

By using Overprint without making your PDF a PDF/X compliant document, so that it declares its intent and requirements - you might as well be throwing it over the fence and praying that it prints correctly. It is no different than sending that PDF out without fonts embedded and expecting it to print. You're playing with fire.

As I discuss in my blog - we could well have shipped with the setting on "Automatic", and in fact we did for most of our beta test period. what we found, however, was that there are too many documents in the real world that use overprinting INCORRECTLY! As such, we were enabling the OP Preview option and the documents would render MUCH MORE poorly and slowly than necessary. But in discussions with our testers and various organizations, we reached a consensus that the use PDF/X as determiner for OP requirements is really the best choice all around.

As I am the person responsible for this feature in Acrobat 9 and the decisions behind it - if anyone feels that we made the wrong call, I would very much like to hear why. I am certainly willing to discuss changes for the future - but I need them backed up with real world data - not conjecture. Therefore, please be sure to back up your reasons with actual documents, user workflows, etc. which we have made worse by this choice over what we've done with Acrobat 8.

Oh, and both Dov and I will be in attendance this week at the Ghent WG meeting if anyone wishes to speak to us in person.

Leonard Rosenthol
PDF Standards Architect
Adobe Systems

 

[leonardr]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

> {quote:title=CHM wrote:}{quote}
> But what i dont understand is that Adobe seems to support badly constructed pdf's.

That's an excellent question.

The reason is simple - users have come to expect that Acrobat/Reader can view ANY PDF, no matter how much it diverges from the actual standard. We even repair many damaged and invalid documents, just so our users get their expected ability to view ANYTHING that claims to be a PDF - no matter how pathetic.

Were we to only open up and view PDFs that conformed to the standard, I think you would be quite disappointed when many documents that you already have and/or will receive won't view. You might even stop using Acrobat and choose another tool...Not something we want.


> Let me explain, if sombody makes a file and he puts overprint in it he also except it to be viewed in the pdf file, but Acrobat default set to not view this. This seems not very logical to me.
>

You've made a statement that based on our actual testing of thousands of files is NOT necessarily the case. As I noted in my blog, in actual evaluation of files in the real world, we have found that there are significant percentage of PDFs out there that contain overprinting DO NOT ACTUALLY NEED IT.

> Like i understand Acrobat and Acrobat Reader should view the file like it is, now its interpreting the file and showing us what some expect to see. So not really WYSIWYG.
>

Overprinting and WYSIWYG are not actually compatible terms, IMO. OP is a concept STRICTLY for a "separated workflow" printing to a CMYK-based device (aka your average Postscript printer) - it is NOT for use on a composite (mostly RGB-based) device like a monitor. This is spelled out quite clearly in the Postscript and PDF references.

What Acrobat, InDesign and other applications do is to SIMULATE, on screen, what OP SHOULD look like when printed to such a device. As such, there is a debate among various standards groups as to the future of Overprint as the industry moves away from separated workflows to pure composite and digital workflows. In addition, this discrepancy with rendering of OP on screen vs. on printer is causing furors in the digital archival community as well.

While you may think this is a cut and dried issue - it is NOT.

As noted in my other message - Dov and I will be in Ghent - feel free to grab us on the topic.

Leonard

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

In response to a few questions about why not always have overprint preview on all the time and why Adobe wouldn't want users to see the documents exactly the way they are going to print, etc. ... a few points:

(1) The way overprint preview works effectively requires that the document page to be displayed be internally converted to the output CMYK (and of course then converted to RGB for display). By definition, "overprint" is a subtractive (i.e. reflective) color attribute. It means nothing for RGB additive color. Thus, there go the bright blues, bright greens, etc. that the author of the original document may wish to display on-line and of course, since Acrobat does not currently support high fidelity output color spaces (such as Hexachrome or even the simple CcMmYK colors of inexpensive inkjet photo printers, conversion to the output CMYK for overprint preview display will yield less than pleasant results in many cases.

(2) I know that your world and most of mine revolves around printing and graphic arts. But the truth is that the vast majority of PDF production is done from applications that don't even support the concept of overprint. Microsoft Office applications except for Publisher have no concept whatsoever of "overprint." Adobe FrameMaker supports specification of overprint but then ignores it on output for Windows (there is a Unix version; Mac version is defunct) since it outputs via Windows GDI which is totally RGB. For these applications, overprint preview provides no reasonable functionality other than showing how colors may be muted +when printing+!

(3) Also note that recent versions of InDesign don't even allow overprint of white. But overprint white is not the only overprint issue. Overprint yellow over cyan is obviously going to give an effect very different than knock-out of yellow over cyan.

Nonetheless, for graphic arts and print purposes, there is no question that seeing the results of overprint specifications on screen in Acrobat is exceptionally important. The problem was how to force overprint preview consistently where it was appropriate and not force it where it is inappropriate.

I think that the default Acrobat 9 / Reader 9 use of PDF/X specification to force overprint preview is about the best compromise we can make at this time. And as I mentioned in my previous post, the fact that we now have PDF/X-4 allows us to +fully endorse+ PDF/X for printing including use of PDF/X for live transparency and color management.

- Dov

 

[CHM]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

Thanks again both for your replies. And i am looking forward to see you both next week. I am attending the packaging meeting, and if I have some time left I hope i can exchange some ideas about this with you.

 

[jonkovach]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

I have been following this conversation, and it leads me to a few other questions related to my workflow.

I print to all wide format HP printers - so overprinting is a non-issue for me, or so I think. Right now, my workflow is to print anything and everything (InDesign, Illustrator, Corel, etc...) to a PS file, then distill to a v4 PDF. This is what I was taught to do a few years back. I am starting to read more and more about PDF/X and going direct to PDF.... and am starting to wonder if i'm not doing something that is becoming quite archaic. Am I? Is direct to PDF a more efficient workflow for me?

I run Onyx, and have transparency issues - especially when there is a drop shadow over top of a Pantone color. Are these problems eliminated if I change my workflow?

Any advice here is greatly appreciated.... perhaps there are some articles I can read somewhere?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[rich apollo]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

> {quote:title=jonkovach wrote:}{quote}
> ... and am starting to wonder if i'm not doing something that is becoming quite archaic. Am I?

In short, "Yes." But, efficiency for you is tied to the capabilities of your RIP.


> {quote:title=jonkovach wrote:}{quote}
> I run Onyx, and have transparency issues - especially when there is a drop shadow over top of a Pantone color. Are these problems eliminated if I change my workflow?

If inkjet is your final output, then you shouldn't have any spot colors at all. If you convert the spots to process do your transparency issues go away?

 

[jonkovach]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

Well, I have always thought the capabilities of my Onyx RIP were rather .... well..... capable. But recently I'm reading more and more how much people don't like Onyx. I have heard good things about ColorBurst - but I'm so deep in Onyx, it would be quite trying to switch now.

Inkjet is my final output. People specify spot colors in their file, and when they do that, Onyx recognizes the names and prints as close to the appropriate Lab values as possible (or so I have been told). I can change all my spots to process, and when I do that, all my problems go away. However, at the same time, all my colors are thrown askew. They don't look as nice (vibrant), and they don't match to the Pantone book nearly as well as the spot colors do.

Jon

 

[Prepper]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

Jon,

I too had gone to PDF 1.4 but saw some transparency issues come back on me and the solution was to go back to 1.3 which force flattens everything, I believe, wonder if this would help your situation?

 

[rich apollo]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

> {quote:title=jonkovach wrote:}{quote}
> Well, I have always thought the capabilities of my Onyx RIP were rather .... well..... capable. But recently I'm reading more and more how much people don't like Onyx. I have heard good things about ColorBurst - but I'm so deep in Onyx, it would be quite trying to switch now.

You can find dirt on any vendor. Everybody is a bad guy to someone.

> {quote:title=jonkovach wrote:}{quote}
> Inkjet is my final output. People specify spot colors in their file, and when they do that, Onyx recognizes the names and prints as close to the appropriate Lab values as possible (or so I have been told). I can change all my spots to process, and when I do that, all my problems go away. However, at the same time, all my colors are thrown askew. They don't look as nice (vibrant), and they don't match to the Pantone book nearly as well as the spot colors do.

I think you might be able to adjust your output settings and fix your issues. The RIP can't print anything outside the gamut of the proofer. It's using an internal look-up table for the spot colors. That's fine, but it's still all going to the same printer. Are you trying to simulate offset printing of some kind?

 

[jonkovach]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

Actually, I am running PDF 1.3 and having these issues. It all relates to spot colors, I'm sure of it.
I had said going to PDF v4... which I meant Acrobat v4, wihch is a 1.3 PDF.... sorry.
Jon

 

[jonkovach]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

> {quote:title=rich apollo wrote:}{quote}
> I think you might be able to adjust your output settings and fix your issues. The RIP can't print anything outside the gamut of the proofer. It's using an internal look-up table for the spot colors. That's fine, but it's still all going to the same printer. Are you trying to simulate offset printing of some kind?


So is there a way to color match every single Pantone color in CMYK format.... then when there is a Pantone color coming across, instead of it printing what it thinks it should print, it prints what CMYK values I tell it to print?

I am not simulating offset or anything like that. What I proof on is what I print my final prints on. It's a simple workflow - this aspect of it has just always caused me grief.

 

[pcmodem]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

> {quote:title=Dov Isaacs wrote:}{quote}
> Nonetheless, for graphic arts and print purposes, there is no question that seeing the results of overprint specifications on screen in Acrobat is exceptionally important. The problem was how to force overprint preview consistently where it was appropriate and not force it where it is inappropriate.


Leonard and Dov,

By now, the experts in the graphics industry should know that designers don't always have the knowledge or sometimes have the time to correctly produce their job. As vendors to designers, we need to make it easier for the designer to do their job correctly.

In the past I had talked to someone in the Acrobat team about having an overprint flag inside the PDF file. This apparently was discussed prior to my question and was shot down because of possible security issues. I do understand that using PDF/X will invoke the OP, but by chance. Is there a way Acrobat could determine if the PDF has overprint, and then ask the user if they would like to see how the PDF would print. In this same dialog, there would be the check box of "Remember this Choice". Thus fulfilling the request of both sides of the fence.

Brian Cupp

 

[rich apollo]

Re: AcrobatReader 9 and overprints....

> {quote:title=jonkovach wrote:}{quote}
> So is there a way to color match every single Pantone color in CMYK format.... then when there is a Pantone color coming across, instead of it printing what it thinks it should print, it prints what CMYK values I tell it to print?
>
> I am not simulating offset or anything like that. What I proof on is what I print my final prints on. It's a simple workflow - this aspect of it has just always caused me grief.

Depends on the gamut of your output device. So, for example, a lot of the PANTONE library is unreproducable on an offset press. You should be able to reproduce much more of the PANTONE library on your inkjet device - the color gamut should be much larger.

I'm not versed on the Onyx RIP, but many inkjet RIPs have customizable spot color look-up tables. That means that you could run some tests to find out what tint mix best reproduces each spot color with your RIP/printer/ink/paper combination.