May have solved gas ghost.

[Dennis731]

we have had the same issues for a long while with gas ghosts.

We use Superior Elite process inks and AQ and just about 50 percent of the jobs ghost.

Tried everything from airing sheets, to microwaving them, no dice.

Until I realized that a lower VOC ink may work better.
We received some Soy based process inks And did a side by side test under the same conditions same press, same paper, same drying times.
And the non soy ink ghosted in 5 minutes ,
The soy based has NO ghosting at all.

We may try vegetable oil based inks soon but if anyone cares too, try a soy based or real low VOC ink.

Our soy was Taniguchi techno color.

 

[Dennis731]

trying to add more.



Paper used
Moorim 100lb value gloss.
Ir dryer used on both tests to 95f temp @ 30 seconds.

Room temps both days 68-70

 

[Dennis731]

ink used
TC-G8 series states very low voc.

Pretty certain this will fix the ghosting issues.
Were getting some zero voc ink from superior to try as well.

 

[jlind]

Dennis731:
Interesting work. When you say AQ, do you mean you were getting ghosts even after using aqueous coating?

I have had some ghosting issues in the past, thankfully, and I was using the Flint 918 Bio series of low VOC vegetable oil inks and one PMS ink that was hopefully formulated the same way. Flint tech reps claimed the ghosting was caused by, was more likely with, the low VOC inks. So that's the opposite opinion of where you are going. Far out, that's printing. I suspected the PMS ink all along, but, on to the next job.

Low VOC soy inks might be a misnomer or an oxymoron, since soy oil evaporates at a higher temperature than petroleum ink oil, and therefore is not a VOC by definition. But it is still in the ink film and leads to some rub resistance/marking/setting/drying hard issues.

Finally, I read somewhere that soy based cleaning solvents were used in California, again because they are low VOC, and there was a very negative swelling thing going on with the softer press rollers and blankets. Something to look forward to. Nothing personal Iowa and Nebraska. Last I heard, soy products were non-drying oils. Non heatset and newspaper printing.

John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

 

[Dennis731]

Yes the AQ was showing the gas ghost.
Without AQ on coated stocks we saw no hint of this.
I know it has been said that AQ will supposedly hide the ghosting
But it only hurt us when we AQ'd.

We have been experiencing this for over 15 years but only since now
have we tried soy ink low voc and if we hadn't done a side by side test, I would dismiss it at
cooincidence.
I will update on further jobs that we know gas ghost on us since we are pretty much not looking back on non soy ink.
I expect to see the problem disappear.

 

[Dennis731]

let me correct A mistake.

AQ has caused jobs to ghost on us plenty.
This above test was actually a spot varnish.
Varnish has been the bigger nightmare, we will be AQ'ing a job that has ghosted on us before,
So that will be A whole new test.

Thanks for the info on the solvents swelling rollers, we will pay close Attention to the new products,
I guess going green means going red first.

 

[Lukew]

We use novavit 918 bio supreme 100% vegetable based ink, and get the gas gohsting it only evey happens if we try an double side varnish, never do we get gloss ghosting just from the cmyk ink alone.. so I don't think that all low voc inks are a fix to gas ghosting..

I must say we never used to have the problem with our old ink, TK toka series which has a 10-20%soy in it..

 

[Dennis731]

That's interesting too Luke..


We get the gas ghost on single sided varnished pieces and double sided.


I am still under the assumption that using lower VOC type inks may out gas less??

I figure to get rid of gas ghosts, you need to get rid of the gas...simple but not..

We had stacked sheets in small piles, fanned them, blew air into them, and nothing has ever seemed to solve the issue.

We took in some samples of Soy based ink and figured, ok, lets do this job over we had about 500 sheets of 14X20 100 lb gloss,
using the Superior Elite process inks. (non soy)
Next morning ran the same job same time, same variables, but used the soy ink.

Later that day we varnished the NON SOY ink run AS WELL as the SOY ink run one right after another.

The non soy ink run ghosted within 5 minutes.
The Soy based was smooth with no hint of ghosting at all.
These were both with varnish.

on close inspection, I took one that was run with both inks, NON VARNISHED, and could NOT see any ghosting on it at all.....

I am not saying the varnish caused the ghost, but for us, the only way to see the ghosting IS TO varnish it..

Or even AQ it.......


I am eager to see an AQ job run, with the soy ink...
We have been pretty consistent with our setups, not changing too much over the years, so any success we have we feel better about.

I agree there are lots of contradicting ideas about what works and what doesn't, I think there are just too many variables in the printing industry for this to be locked down and solved right now...

 

[nhprinter]

Gas Ghosting

Gas Ghosting

Hi All,

I'm very surprised to see this is still an issue. As I mentioned to Lukew in another thread we just changed ink manufacturers and haven't seen it in years. (except off our Digital presses)

We currently use Superior's Biolocity ink line, but the Elite and Evolution lines also worked well. (which btw are veg. based, not soy based).

If you are looking for variables you might want to consider the paper. It's the changes in the way paper is manufactured that started this whole problem.

 

[Dennis731]

We are currently using the Elite series now, which is causing this issue, is the elite considered VEG based?
I wasn't even aware if it is..

Either way, Superior is sending us Biolocity ink finally.
I can't comment on how the tech guy was like" oh yeah, try this ink it will fix the problem" DUH like after 10 years of complaining to you, and now you make the suggestion..!

I do agree, the paper has changed dramatically, some for the worse..
You can see it in the overall look of some glosses, and sometimes the run itself.


Will still update when the change is made.

 

[nhprinter]

Just an FYI. The Elite has a small percentage of veg. oil in it, but the Biolocity has the most.

We've been using the Biolocity for about 6 months now. We were one of the first in the Northeast to try it and we love it. I hope you have the same luck.


Dave

 

[Dennis731]

I was looking over the spec sheets on the Evolution, Elite and BIO series inks..

Ironically, they all have about the same percentage of veg based oil.

About 17-35 percent.
With the BIO containing ZERO petroleum in it.

The other 2 have 17 percent or 25 or more petroleums in it,,,,. its not in front of me.


Sounds like the Biolocity has better drying with the linseed oil than the Elite or Evolution...

Either way, I guess the true green inks will be the BIO series.

I don't want to attack the Superior tech guy, but we had this issue for over 10 years and there have been call after call regarding this issue.
You would have thought the guy would have suggested a different ink..

After 38 years we decided to go green, so this was a good step switching to soy to start, otherwise we would still be having this problem, but it does appear that the Bio veg based is a better way to go..
Will be looking for pros and cons on the 2.

I already saw some regarding ink staying open longer, or drying times, but I would love to hear others opinions as well..

thanks

Dennis..

 

[nhprinter]

Without sounding like I'm advertising for Superior because I'm sure there are other inks out there that are just as good, I can tell you that we've been very happy with the Biolocity.

It stays open for at least 48 hours since we don't have to skin the cans on Monday mornings, yet it dries incredibly fast. We've cut full coverage 4 color jobs within 4 hours after running them with no problem. (not that we make a habit of doing it, but it's nice to know we can) It also holds very consistant color throughout the run.

I understand your frustration with the tech department. It seems that it's like that throughout this industry, not just the inks. This forum proves that every day.

 

[Bob Peterson]

Dennis,

I'm sorry to here of your continued problems with your supplier. Can I ask which Superior branch you deal with and what the name of your company is?

Thanks,
Bob