moved on from refurbs; Ricoh C5300 or KM C4065 repayments, cpc similar

[billp]

IN just 24hours, armed with better offers, Ive sorta moved on from the whole refurb debate to pretty simple choice; Ricoh C5300s or KM C4065?

We print 20k cmyk 900mm banners on bond & 5k gloss SR A3 though are soon moving to a minor retail area & plan to gradually grow local work. We also print LF solvent & aqueous. cheers



Following on from my last lengthy post, I wondered how long cpc agreements* are on refurbs in other territories?

They were 60 months previously but in recent negotiations we've been told 36 months max.

afaik this change is recent, possibly introduced by the new ceo in our region.

from my discussions with Ricoh they dont do refurbs at all (in our region) ie no Greenline.

Does Canon, FujiFilm aka Xerox or KM do refurbs in your region?

How long are the cpc agreements on refurbs?

Does it matter if the refurb is purchased outright or rented?

*directly with the KM/Xerox/Ricoh/Canon, not with dealers

cheers bill

 

[kslight]

In the US, with Ricoh when we bought a new machine - the refurbs were either unavailable or they were an old model (the 7100), and I didn’t get a proposal because I didn’t want the old model, but I’m sure it was a shorter term and a higher cost per copy. I think that is pretty normal - these machines aren’t designed to be on the field forever. And supply is based on demand - this was in September 2021 when we bought our machine and the height of chip shortages, took 9 months to get the new machine. So it makes sense refurbs we’re hard to get. And they don’t know what parts availability will look like on a machine that will be probably 8-9 years old, why they won’t guarantee more than 36 months.

My own opinion, my previous employer used to buy returbs from Xerox, and it was never worth it. The machine was still expensive, but the click charge was very high, and the quality / productivity wasn’t great. For the same cost or less they could have just had new equipment.

At your fairly low volume, IMHO buying a new machine on a dollar out lease might make the most sense, then at the end of the lease you can decide to keep it till the wheels fall off if the machine is still running well. At my volume, I think most machines are ready for to be replaced after the lease is up.

 

[TJPrinter]

Two years ago I looked into this with Xerox and it was a 36 month service contract. They would not go any longer. It just wasn't worth it even with my lower volume. Locking in service for 60 months and a lower click rate for a new lease was the best option. The savings were insignificant to stay with my old machine or even bring in a refurbished one.

For me, I feel that the added benefit of an updated machine with improvements in quality and productivity outweighed any minor increase in a new lease. But that's just what works best for me.

 

[billp]

Thanks TJ, Yes, I am better understanding the multiple layers to figuring what works best under the circumstances. For me, now that Ricoh are talking potential of 6 year cpc & km 7 (both subject to reasonable t&c), the repayments are much the same as a cheaper refurb (repayments over only 36-48 months), but often the refurb has higher cpc.

The conundrum I have now is C5300s (over 6 years) or C4065 (over 7), monthly repayments and click charges pretty close. Love some thoughts please, we print about 20k 900mm bond banners & 5000 SRa3 gloss.

 

[bcr]

Thanks TJ, Yes, I am better understanding the multiple layers to figuring what works best under the circumstances. For me, now that Ricoh are talking potential of 6 year cpc & km 7 (both subject to reasonable t&c), the repayments are much the same as a cheaper refurb (repayments over only 36-48 months), but often the refurb has higher cpc.

The conundrum I have now is C5300s (over 6 years) or C4065 (over 7), monthly repayments and click charges pretty close. Love some thoughts please, we print about 20k 900mm bond banners & 5000 SRa3 gloss.

If you're thinking of going refurb i would have thought the main benefit of that would be if it means your commitment is shorter due to the lower purchase cost of the machine.

e.g. if the machine is only worth 10k rather than 50k new, if that means you can get a short lease agreement of say 2/3 years, then you can more easily change direction with a new/different machine much sooner.

Regardless of whether you go refurb or new, the key questions you should ask yourself on comparing these machines:

- have you demoed both machines extensively using your own files and substrates? If not - go to their showrooms, take boxes of your most common and most difficult stocks, and a usb full of your files. and print and print and print. don't let them rush you.

- have you looked at their software and workflow to see if they work for you out of the box?

- have you any experience of either firm's local service standards? can you find other local clients and ask them for feedback?

- can you contract these prints out to a trade printer in bulk more cost effectively than doing it yourself?

 

[TJPrinter]

Thanks TJ, Yes, I am better understanding the multiple layers to figuring what works best under the circumstances. For me, now that Ricoh are talking potential of 6 year cpc & km 7 (both subject to reasonable t&c), the repayments are much the same as a cheaper refurb (repayments over only 36-48 months), but often the refurb has higher cpc.

The conundrum I have now is C5300s (over 6 years) or C4065 (over 7), monthly repayments and click charges pretty close. Love some thoughts please, we print about 20k 900mm bond banners & 5000 SRa3 gloss.

I think this is a bit different for everyone. I know of a shop that uses the cheapest paper he can get and runs old machines that are always down or waiting for parts. This seems to work for him. I find that this business of printing that we chose to be in is getting harder every day and the extra stress of not know if I’ll be able to finish a job because the press is down or quality sucks is just too much extra stress for me. If I can’t get the job done then someone down the street or online will get it done. I really just figure the cost of the lease to be continuous.

I have samples run before I sign a new lease and I run the same samples once the new machine is setup. I store all those samples in a box and if I should have a quality problem in the future I can pull out the samples and say fix it. I’ve always had good service and have never had to do this but it’s there if needed. So whatever you decide, new or refurb, Ricoh or KM be sure to run lots of samples before you sign.

 

[billp]

Just to clarify the fine print, KM year 6 CPC tripled. Ricoh not in writing so not really bankable.

Need more clicks to justify new machine repayments. And refurbs, because CPC only 36mths, & sometimes higher CPC, need to cost 1/2 or less (compared to new).

Either raise prices, increase throughput or go RIP less (no rip), finisher-less or feeder-less. All workable, just not preferable. cheers!