Understanding the Canon ImagePress Line and Rough Price Points

[jpfulton248]

We are seriously considering a lease or more likely just purchasing an ImagePress C700 from Canon. One of the remaining concerns is simply whether, if something happens where we feel that we must sell it in 3 years -- how much will we be able to get for it. I'm trying to look at the comparable printer from 3 years ago and see what that is going for used. I'm having a lot of trouble really nailing this down. With only the C7010vp for sale on ebay and having no idea what that retails for or what the manufacture date is of the used ones that are for sale, it's very hard to make a determination.

Does anybody have any information on this? Can anyone tell me if I buy a C700 today for $40k roughly what can I expect to get for it in 36 months with reasonable wear on it (about 750k clicks). Any help much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[arossetti]

I wouldn't expect anymore then $5,000. I don't deal a lot in used digital equipment but that would be my guess. We just sold a KM6501 with the production bookletmaker, external fiery RIP and HiCap feeders for $1,500. Older equipment but there is not a lot of value in used digital.

 

[JustinB]

The problem is the service contract. No one wants to buy a machine without a service contract, and no company wants to give you a service contract on a machine you didn't buy from them. They'll do it, but the price per click is usually insulting.

Why do you want a c700 as opposed to a c800 or an imagepress C7011?

 

[jpfulton248]

I wouldn't expect anymore then $5,000. I don't deal a lot in used digital equipment but that would be my guess. We just sold a KM6501 with the production bookletmaker, external fiery RIP and HiCap feeders for $1,500. Older equipment but there is not a lot of value in used digital.

How much did the KM6501 retail for? How old was it when you sold it? How many clicks? $5,000 seems incredibly low for a $40,000 machine after 3 years.

The problem is the service contract. No one wants to buy a machine without a service contract, and no company wants to give you a service contract on a machine you didn't buy from them. They'll do it, but the price per click is usually insulting.

Why do you want a c700 as opposed to a c800 or an imagepress C7011?

Salespeople at Canon pushed us toward a C700/C800 because we have low volume. In our attempts to negotiate with them they convinced us to save some money by going with the 700 instead of the 800. We've reluctantly agreed. They didn't even mention the C7011.

Anybody else have an opinion?

Edit: This guy is asking $23,995 on a Canon C7010VP with 1.6mil clicks which was put into service in 2010/2011. Not sure how the 7010 price point compares to the C700 but is this guy really THAT far off on his asking price?? He has other 7010s around the same price.

 

[arossetti]

If you sell it in three years will you sell direct to the end user or will you sell to a broker? Will you have up to a year to sit on the equipment for the right buyer when the time to sell comes? If you try to sell it yourself you could ask for $10,000-15,000 but where you end up after negotiations I would think would be closer to $7,000-$10,000. Your problem is that after 4-5 years is that Canon goes back to all the shops that bought a C700 and sells them the new C710 (or whatever it will be), takes out the old C700 and it sits in a warehouse with hundreds of other used C700's. The market is flooded with used laser printers that the manufacture won't support because they want you buying the C710 not a used C700 they can't sell you.

 

[jpfulton248]

If you sell it in three years will you sell direct to the end user or will you sell to a broker? Will you have up to a year to sit on the equipment for the right buyer when the time to sell comes? If you try to sell it yourself you could ask for $10,000-15,000 but where you end up after negotiations I would think would be closer to $7,000-$10,000. Your problem is that after 4-5 years is that Canon goes back to all the shops that bought a C700 and sells them the new C710 (or whatever it will be), takes out the old C700 and it sits in a warehouse with hundreds of other used C700's. The market is flooded with used laser printers that the manufacture won't support because they want you buying the C710 not a used C700 they can't sell you.

Yep, that's pretty much all in line with our thinking and we were guessing somewhere in the 15k-20k range but 10k-15k probably makes a whole lot of sense.

 

[JustinB]

What is your monthly volume?

 

[jpfulton248]

What is your monthly volume?

So these are calculated based on Canon's "Single Click" rate which is that they only charge a single click for any size sheet:

18,000 black monthly
3,600 color monthly

Their lease on 63 months is $640 with a .01 cent black and a .06 cent color. I think there was a click commit on that but it was within the usage I quoted above.

 

[namelessentity]

That seems pretty reasonable considering how low your volume is.
We have a 4 year old 6010 and our average has climbed to around 120k impressions a month.
.044 color / .0099 bw

 

[jpfulton248]

That seems pretty reasonable considering how low your volume is.
We have a 4 year old 6010 and our average has climbed to around 120k impressions a month.
.044 color / .0099 bw

Did you lease? What have you been paying? How satisfied have you been with the machine and service?

 

[namelessentity]

My boss always does lease to own. We plan on keeping it until it's useless.
The service has been good. we bought it through Oce right before the merger. My only issue was early on the machine was nearly brand new, so only about 4 local techs had been trained. At this point pretty much everyone can service it, though.

I work in Wine Country, so our clients are ultra picky and want everything on 110# cover and textured stocks. The 6000/7000 SUCK for uncoated or textured stocks, but the samples I've seen from the 700/800 have pretty much eliminated the issues with the new toner they use. Also, since we run so much heavy cover at 12x18 it wears down the secondary fuser roller really fast so it needs to be rebuilt pretty frequently. Aside from that, it's pretty reliable and rarely jams unless I accidentally send a job with the wrong paper information.

One last thing, we have the Prisma controller and I hate it. If I could go back in time I would absolutely make sure I got a model with a Fiery on it.

 

[jpfulton248]

My boss always does lease to own. We plan on keeping it until it's useless.

What is the service arrangement with you keeping it? Do you guys pay for some sort of service plan? Is it monthly service plan PLUS clicks or just clicks? Higher click rate? Would love details on this because this may be our preferred route. Do a dollar buyout lease and then run it into the ground after that. This only works, however, if Canon will service it of course.

 

[JustinB]

Our initial plan was to run our machine into the ground too.

Canon "officially" supports equipment for 7 years after it is discontinued. Beyond that it's up to their discretion if they want to offer parts or service.

After your service contract ends, Canon Solutions will up the click cost by 10-15% each year until they decide they're done fixing your machine, or you decide you're done paying the higher click cost.

Back in August I was faced with hanging onto my 7000vp and/or upgrading to a 7010vp. My service contact on my 7000vp only had a few more months, then it would start going up. I made all sorts of handy dandy charts in excel and concluded that adding the 7010vp now would increase my bills by about $500 a month for a few months, but my total monthly payout (machine payment + clicks) would even out over the course of 5 years. Reason being is that the cumulative effect of the annual 10-15% increase was more money per month than the increase in the payment they were proposing for having 2 machines.

It wasn't a clear cut decision and it came down to some preferences, and a little risk (would I rather upgrade now or wait 9 months and hope I can find the machine/deal I want?) but I think it will work out for us.

Moral of the story: These companies have all of us by the short and curlies. Get used to it.

 

[namelessentity]

August of this year? They just launched the c8000/10000 in November I believe. I sure hope your salesperson mentioned the c8000/10000 before locking you in on that sale.

 

[JustinB]

August of this year? They just launched the c8000/10000 in November I believe. I sure hope your salesperson mentioned the c8000/10000 before locking you in on that sale.

I knew about the 8000 and 10000 machines. We checked them out at Graph Expo and even looked under the hood of them too. The reason they are faster is because they use a toner with a lower melting point, not because of any major changes/improvements in the machine.

We regularly print small booklets 2-up on a 13x19 then cut them down and run them through a second time to saddle stitch and trim them. With the low melt toner we would have had problems with the toner peeling back off the page. I also know that some of our customers take our output and run it through copy machines to add more information to the sheet. The low melt toner could cause problems for them too.

 

[appreciationprinting]

Can anyone tell me the difference on quality between a Canon C700 and a Konica Minolta C1070? We are trying to decide which is better.

 

[jpfulton248]

Can anyone tell me the difference on quality between a Canon C700 and a Konica Minolta C1070? We are trying to decide which is better.

The truth is, I don't know but if I had to take a stab at it I'd say the C700. I don't believe Konica Minolta has a very good reputation compared to Canon's production printer offerings.

 

[Steve0]

The truth is, I don't know but if I had to take a stab at it I'd say the C700. I don't believe Konica Minolta has a very good reputation compared to Canon's production printer offerings.

I take exception to that, but then, I work for KM. However, even a casual reading of these forums shows that current-model KM machines do in fact enjoy a good reputation for color quality.

 

[wonderings]

Can anyone tell me the difference on quality between a Canon C700 and a Konica Minolta C1070? We are trying to decide which is better.

Asking others opinions is fine, but your jobs and needs could be unique or you know what you need to accomplish for the customers you have. You should be doing extensive tests on the machine you are looking to buy, run your hardest and most challenging jobs for your pickiest customers. The machine is no good for you if you cannot accomplish what your customers need and expect from you. I would say make sure your operators are there for the testing and even running the machines in the demos as well. That is what we have done, Xerox has been great with that and letting us run live jobs and see what we can/need accomplish. Knowing the machine can handle what we want makes it that much easier to drop the cash down on a new machine.

 

[JustinB]

"Color Quality" is one thing, but color consistency is very different. Additionally, color is only half the equation. Paper is the other half. Seems like KM can't figure out how to get a piece of paper to pass consistently through their machines. Different gsm ratings for simplex and duplex.... front/back registration issues.... friction feed paper paths...

Seems like Canon absolutely owns KM in those areas.