Xerox 700 vs. Canon C6000

[GregNac19]

One thing that you might want to consider is if the toner will has oil in it. It makes it hard for a finishing coat to be added off-line such as digital UV coating or lamination. If you plan on offering that to your customers, make sure your finishers have the correct coating to finish your job with. We just had a customer completely have to redo a job on a sheet-fed press because their digital copier had the oil in the toner and the toner smeared when the UV was applied. They were unaware that that could happen.

The Xerox 700 DOES NOT use fuser oil. I don't think Canon does either.

 

[ridety]

Does this include the interface module? Who is quoting this? Xerox or Global

xerox and global VERY close in price...included bookletmaker

 

[GregNac19]

xerox and global VERY close in price...included bookletmaker

If they are close are close in price, I would go with Xerox over global. With so many new software programs coming out everyday and compatibiliy issues that will happen time to time, it seems to always be better to have the Xerox Tech. call the engineer and to fix the issue asap. I don't think global has that line of communication. Not to mention the tenured Xerox techs.
these are my 2 cents.

 

[RKS]

Well, I don't know who is spreading the false information around here, but for sure the Xerox 700 can outperform quality wise better than the Cannon, Ricoh or KM. Also, the 5000AP. We bought ours through Fuji, who makes all the Xerox machines except the IGEN in their partnership with Xerox. Fuji's application specialists/color management tech's, setup our machine to the Gracol 7 proofs that we use on our offset presses. And the quality far exceeds that of the other machines. We run 250 Line Co-Res Screening and also 20 Micron Taffeta screening on our offset presses and the quality on the 700 is great & it looks like offset, because the Fuji people know color.

 

[lensam69]

Over the last two weeks I've printed my samples on a x700, c6000 and km 6501.

Yes, Xerox has the best print quality,but the difference is not huge. I think that for 90% of customers, the other two machines are good enough. I also think that the c6000 and the km are more versatile than xerox, and provide a better value for the money spent. We will probably be going with the c6000, since it's the most robust machine out of all three.

I also have to state that the treatment that we received from the Canon and Km sales teams was much better and professional than Xerox.

 

[GregNac19]

We will probably be going with the c6000, since it's the most robust machine out of all three.

I also have to state that the treatment that we received from the Canon and Km sales teams was much better and professional than Xerox.

More robust machine? At what?
I am surprised you would say you did not get prosessional treatment. Xerox is the top in the industry in training. Maybe you should speak to someone else.
By the way all printers should remember this quote that has been around for centuries
"You get what you pay for"

 

[lensam69]

More robust in the following:

Duplexes heavier stocks than the Xerox can,
Duplexes coated stocks faster than Xerox (We'll mostly be running 12 x 18 100# gloss)
Has a duty cycle about double the X700
Uses air feed instead of friction feed. (Comming from the printing world, Air > Friction)
Has tighter registration than the Xerox.

There are more reasons, but these are the ones that matter to me the most. C6000 does these better than X700 Period.

I'm not knocking the x700. It's not a bad machine. As I said, the print quality is better than the other two I looked at; but it's not by a huge margin.

Regarding professionalism, I'm mentioning my particular experience. I'm sure that there are much better xerox reps out there. It just so happened that our reps thought it was a done deal, since we've been a xerox shop for about 10 years, and didn't really treat us the way the other two did.

And Greg, there is such a thing as paying too much for a product.

 

[smatros]

lensam, but the x700 is also quite cheaper compared to c6000, right?
in my opinion the choice may depend on the type of jobs you intend to run. x700 is pretty limited in papers.
and x700 still uses oil, not machine but it is in toner. we sometimes run into lamination / creasing problems.

 

[lensam69]

Smatros,
The lease on the C6000 is about 25% more than the xerox, but on the overall scheme of things, that represents about $500 a month, which we can certainly make up in one or two jobs. We looked a the toner issue, and it's not oil. It's wax. We tested some lamination on it, and the results are so so. If it's light coverage it would work, but on heavy coverage, it doesn't adhere all that well. It would be ok for a disposable job, but on menus and things like that, it wouldn't work.

 

[smatros]

we produce tons of menus, which is why lamination is one of our priorities. i'm quite surprised that situation on Canon is similarly problematic to Xerox. from what i learnt till now the KM probably behaves best with this topic.

 

[lensam69]

I was refering to the Xerox on my post. I still haven't tried to laminate the Canon samples; but the sales team swears it will laminate without problems.(I take any sales promises with a large grain of salt)

 

[GregNac19]

More robust in the following:

Duplexes heavier stocks than the Xerox can,
Duplexes coated stocks faster than Xerox (We'll mostly be running 12 x 18 100# gloss)
Has a duty cycle about double the X700
Uses air feed instead of friction feed. (Comming from the printing world, Air > Friction)
Has tighter registration than the Xerox.

There are more reasons, but these are the ones that matter to me the most. C6000 does these better than X700 Period.

I'm not knocking the x700. It's not a bad machine. As I said, the print quality is better than the other two I looked at; but it's not by a huge margin.

Regarding professionalism, I'm mentioning my particular experience. I'm sure that there are much better xerox reps out there. It just so happened that our reps thought it was a done deal, since we've been a xerox shop for about 10 years, and didn't really treat us the way the other two did.

And Greg, there is such a thing as paying too much for a product.

If you need to duplex heavier weights and care what the duty cycle is (meaningless in real world) Than why would you not compare the 5000? Runs 300gsm duplex and runs at rated speed single sided? This would be the real comparision.

 

[lensam69]

Ok, perhaps duty cycle is the wrong choice of words.

"Recommended Average Monthly Volume"

We have a x240 and smacked into this limit when our volume started growing, so we see the techs every other week.

We had two issues with the 5000. One is that it doesn't run 13 x 19. This is a critical size for us as we run lot of 4 x 6 full bleed postcards over here; so 12.6 x 19.2 doesn't work for us.

Second is fuser oil. One market that we're strongly planning to go for is Menus (Look out Smartros...). We need something that's laminate friendly. I find that the c6000 is in between the x700 and the x5000. the 6000VP is a closer comparison to the 5000.

 

[[email protected]]

Been stalking but not posting,-finally have something to ask! pardon me if my brain malfunctions while typing and I sound ridiculous

We're a commercial offset printer trying to enter the "digital world". We do a substantial amount of PURLS's which deserve nice VP, and otherwise want to supplement our offset work- either taking smaller jobs off press, handling overflow, securing new work, and/or allowing a costing option.
Additional thoughts are the ability to integrate with Prinergy, EFI Logic, Mindfire and Digital Storefronts.

Right now we are stuck between the Canon C6000 and the Xerox 700 - which really can't be more different when it comes to price.

The Xerox, besides feeling "too cheap" (worried about "the get what you pay for issues") has that lovely glossy sheen of toner on paper while the Canon does not.

So right now while we figure out what we want to sell and which we can sell better- my questions would be more on productivity, reliability, service and RIP issues.

Anyone have any feedback for me to contemplate?

Something I'd like to point out. Canon supplies and especially parts are available through many vendors and are priced more competitively.

Xerox supplies and parts are very tightly controlled by Xerox and hard to get. Therefore price is very dictated as well. (There was a lawsuit about this years ago).

Just a thought...

 

[[email protected]]

Does anyone know for sure if you can start with a Canon 6000 or 6000VP and write the check later on to get it running as one of the faster units?

Canon and Oce did this with their production machines. It's a good question.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm looking at the same two machines (X700 v C6000). I'm waiting to hear back from the Canon people, but so far, my pricing on the 700 with the Light production finisher with booklet maker + Hi-Cap feeder is coming out to $1283 plus .049 Color and .009 B&W

Can some members with either of these machines chime in as to what they're paying? I still don't trust copier salespeople .

Another question, if anyone has the booklet maker on the C6000; how does it behave?


Thanks in advance!

$1283 is high compared to other posts. .049 could go to .0375 (2 up on 11x17) so half that for letter, and .009 b/w is a major rip-off. Some people on a 20ppm machine pay .01 for b/w. This is a $60,000 "production" machine. B/W cost should be around .005 +/- .001.

 

[[email protected]]

$1150/mo. on 5 yr. lease...includes 1 drawer hi cap feeder+light production finisher; internal fiery rip; .05 color/.01 black

I hope you were able to re-negotiate because those aren't good rates.

Good Luck.

 

[[email protected]]

Over the last two weeks I've printed my samples on a x700, c6000 and km 6501.

Yes, Xerox has the best print quality,but the difference is not huge. I think that for 90% of customers, the other two machines are good enough. I also think that the c6000 and the km are more versatile than xerox, and provide a better value for the money spent. We will probably be going with the c6000, since it's the most robust machine out of all three.

I also have to state that the treatment that we received from the Canon and Km sales teams was much better and professional than Xerox.

Some Xerox sales people (including some on these forums) never really knew how to be decent to other human beings.

 

[[email protected]]

More robust machine? At what?
I am surprised you would say you did not get prosessional treatment. Xerox is the top in the industry in training. Maybe you should speak to someone else.
By the way all printers should remember this quote that has been around for centuries
"You get what you pay for"

Why should they speak to someone else at Xerox? For an over 100 year old company with tens of thousands of employees and over $22 Billion, they should only have to speak to the first agents of the company.

But they should speak to someone else, someone other than Xerox. Thank god for competitors and independent dealers!

 

[smatros]

All I can say that purchasing Xerox 700 was one of the biggest mistakes of my career and set our business a year back in time. However, we are a demanding user, printing a lot of full color full coverage items. If you need the unit to print text with some color pic only and prefer lightweight papers, I guess it will probably do the job (on uncoated stock only).