4over Issues

[PricelineNegotiator]

For those using 4over, how has the quality of the product you've been receiving been? We've had numerous issues since Zarik sold.

All 16 PT C2S printed products appear to be ran digitally now, drastically different/inferior print quality. Even at 1,000 quantity and above, it's still printed digitally. All of the cards appear to be ran through a slitter/cutter instead of guillotine, resulting in skewed product. A few different time it has resulted in us needing a reprint. Even the silk and suede laminated cards are now printed digitally - they look like shit. Honestly I'm pretty much done with them, the guy who took over appears to be a complete fucking idiot and is pissing away the empire that Zarik built.

My takeaway is that I will need to do the production for these specific products in house now, which is really only UV coated cards and laminated/laminated+foil cards at this point. Unless you guys have alternate solutions?

Their sign printing hasn't changed, though. Just a lot of the 16 PT C2S stuff.

 

[jwheeler]

Working at an inplant, we don't outsource anything. We either buy the machine to do it in-house, or we don't offer the service. However, I do graphic design on the side and broker the printing for my personal clients. I use GotPrint and have never had any complaints...even for signage.

If you do decide to do it in-house, we had a TecLighting UV coater here for many years and it worked great. (We weren't getting much requests for UV and we needed the space, so we eventually auctioned it off) You can get it as a hand-fed setup, in-line with your digital press, or with it's own feeding system.

For a laminator, we recently purchased a DryLam HLA-2501 and it's been awesome. It can do 1 or 2-sided, up to 13x19 sheets, and there are a variety of laminate finishes and thicknesses available.

Business cards are so fast and easy to produce in-house if you set up hot folders for imposition and have an SCC. You might also consider no longer pushing/promoting the UV and laminate cards. I'd bet many of your clients would be happy with the quality of your in-house digitally printed cards if you didn't show them UV or laminated cards as an option.

 

[Asures]

I hate to tell you but it's "Gang Run" printing.

You can't go to McDonalds and expect to receive a 5 Star Steak...

Your best shot would be to find a smaller size shop (1/2 Size) and source the paper yourself if the volume justifies it. That way, you're just paying for the presstime.

 

[gregbatch]

For those using 4over, how has the quality of the product you've been receiving been? We've had numerous issues since Zarik sold.

All 16 PT C2S printed products appear to be ran digitally now, drastically different/inferior print quality. Even at 1,000 quantity and above, it's still printed digitally. All of the cards appear to be ran through a slitter/cutter instead of guillotine, resulting in skewed product. A few different time it has resulted in us needing a reprint. Even the silk and suede laminated cards are now printed digitally - they look like shit. Honestly I'm pretty much done with them, the guy who took over appears to be a complete fucking idiot and is pissing away the empire that Zarik built.

My takeaway is that I will need to do the production for these specific products in house now, which is really only UV coated cards and laminated/laminated+foil cards at this point. Unless you guys have alternate solutions?

Their sign printing hasn't changed, though. Just a lot of the 16 PT C2S stuff.

Have not used them much lately, except for signage. Was considering them for some EDDM work coming up. What facility was the product coming from? Alternatives? Getting thin. City Colors (Trade Only, DI offset), SinaLite (Trade Only, Canada HQ, but 4 US facilities), Printograph (trade division of GotPrint), Primoprint (has trade/reseller accounts)

 

[gregbatch]

I hate to tell you but it's "Gang Run" printing.

You can't go to McDonalds and expect to receive a 5 Star Steak...

Your best shop would be to find a smaller size shop (1/2 Size) and source the paper yourself if the volume justifies it. That way, you're just paying for the presstime.

Gang-run used to mean something back in the day of analog printing. It doesn't carry much weight anymore in the digital world. Everything is digitally controlled and calibrated from file to press. Even the inks are monitored and controlled digitally. Do digital controls go haywire? Sure, but it has nothing to do with gang-run. The sheet is messed up regardless of what is on it. For non-UV there are plenty of local and regional shops to work with. If I want UV, the options are few. That usually forces me to a digital shop, or Indigo shop where they UV to protect the image. I had one job messed up because someone tried to "fix" my clients art because a photo was a little oversaturated. The photo looked good, but the teal brand color was now closer to lime. Not a happy client. Again, front-end screw-up, not gang-run issue.

 

[keith1]

Alternatives? Getting thin. City Colors (Trade Only, DI offset), SinaLite (Trade Only, Canada HQ,

I used Sina for years. Not for everything, I usually sourced labels & some other stuff elsewhere. They started small and had some growing pains it seemed. Understandable, considering the rate their business grew. It's a family run business. Never had many issues and when I did they always stood behind their product and fixed it. That's what's made them a success. At times their support staff can be somewhat ill-informed but you can easily reach someone higher up the ladder.
They do have a retail division that seems aimed to realtors and the like. Also a commercial print division (as opposed to trade).

 

[Asures]

Gang-run used to mean something back in the day of analog printing. It doesn't carry much weight anymore in the digital world. Everything is digitally controlled and calibrated from file to press. Even the inks are monitored and controlled digitally. Do digital controls go haywire? Sure, but it has nothing to do with gang-run. The sheet is messed up regardless of what is on it. For non-UV there are plenty of local and regional shops to work with. If I want UV, the options are few. That usually forces me to a digital shop, or Indigo shop where they UV to protect the image. I had one job messed up because someone tried to "fix" my clients art because a photo was a little oversaturated. The photo looked good, but the teal brand color was now closer to lime. Not a happy client. Again, front-end screw-up, not gang-run issue.

I actually am an ink vendor that services plenty of shops from both technical and a service stand point (Color calibrations on press and proofing). Do you really think that the operator in a "Gang Run" shop really pays attention to detail and quality to the extent a commercial or packing facility does? It's a "Hang and Bang" versus true craftsmanship. McDonalds vs. Ruth's Chris my friend.

If the file was ripped wrong, that's a prepress issue but no one cares as you get what you pay for... Personalized service goes out the window when you're paying $20.00 for a 1000 business cards on a ganged up sheet my friend.

 

[gregbatch]

I think you over-rate many commercial shops these days. Hang and bang is everywhere. Shops are relying on technology to speed production and reduce human touch.

 

[Asures]

Technology has promoted push button skills, certainly. That said, on press you still have to set rollers properly, tighten a blanket, know coating viscosities (UV or AQ), understand ink and water balance.

If you don't experience press checks in your shop and compare print to proof, this conversation is meaningless.

Personally sir, I avoid the bottom feeders that think .25 per lb. difference in ink pricing is going to be the Saving Grace to their shop staying in existence.

 

[gregbatch]

Can't get around the mechanics and basics. I'm a buyer of offset. Digital in-house.I don’t like the push-button trend, but it's getting more difficult to avoid for all but the boutique jobs. I don't deal with shoppers. No loyalty. No relationship. Will jump ship for a few dollars.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Hang and bang is now how many files are created, in things like Canva and ChatGPT.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Hang and bang is now how many files are created, in things like Canva and ChatGPT.

I thought of a better way of explaining it.

We used to have:

Hard work in -> Slop out

Now, with the help of Canva and ChapGPT, we have a more coherent system:

Slop in -> Slop out

 

[SheetSqueezer]

All 16 PT C2S printed products appear to be ran digitally now, drastically different/inferior print quality.

I don’t believe it. Certain things make me say that but just simply speaking, the idea of efficient, large gang run printing can only be achieved with ½ or full size sheet-fed offset presses. And they have the process for doing that dialed-in like you can’t believe. They practically invented it…

Digital printing cant really come anywhere close to competing with that.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

I don’t believe it. Certain things make me say that but just simply speaking, the idea of efficient, large gang run printing can only be achieved with ½ or full size sheet-fed offset presses. And they have the process for doing that dialed-in like you can’t believe. They practically invented it…

Digital printing cant really come anywhere close to competing with that.

It's been this way for months. I've been ordering at 1,000 and above quantities only, and almost every job has been printed digitally. I have no idea why they are doing it. Perhaps lack of work, or perhaps the offset press crew is gone, or maybe the offset press is at capacity. I can't really tell, support just keeps telling me if I order 1,000 or above it is guaranteed to be ran offset.

 

[namelessentity]

I don’t believe it. Certain things make me say that but just simply speaking, the idea of efficient, large gang run printing can only be achieved with ½ or full size sheet-fed offset presses. And they have the process for doing that dialed-in like you can’t believe. They practically invented it…

Digital printing cant really come anywhere close to competing with that.

Based on what we've been getting back from them lately, I'm pretty sure the process is almost entirely automated. We've got cards back with white on them because they weren't even cut properly. I think they just figure at their volume it's more cost effective to let bad jobs go than it is to QC them.

 

[SheetSqueezer]

I hate to tell you but it's "Gang Run" printing.

You can't go to McDonalds and expect to receive a 5 Star Steak...

Not necessarily the gang-run, but rather, the hang-and-bang, I think. And McDonald’s doesn’t even have steak on the menu but you can certainly expect some pretty good (and fast) food, consistently.

 

[Asures]

Not necessarily the gang-run, but rather, the hang-and-bang, I think. And McDonald’s doesn’t even have steak on the menu but you can certainly expect some pretty good (and fast) food, consistently.

McDonald's doesn't settle well with me. Step up the fast food and at least try In and Out. Maybe that's just a California thing, lol.

 

[TJPrinter]

I wouldn’t send a time sensitive job to them. If they have equipment issues, they will shift production to another facility and it will add days onto delivery, and they won’t inform you it’s going to be produced on the West Coast while your shop is on the East Coast. Then if something goes wrong with a job, well, good luck getting a reprint moved ahead in their normal que.

Would I still send a larger run to them, sure, if time is not important. I also try to get my customers off the use of UV coating, then I can just run the job in-house.

 

[gregbatch]

I really don't like glossy UV, unless you are doing a picture postcard. It creates glare, which makes reading some print difficult, depending on lighting. It was cool way back when, but UV is the thermography of today. It's a way to turn product faster and cover blemishes like fuser lines on toner. If I must UV for durability, I push the client to do satin and they are usually happier with the results. I much prefer to do in-house (digital) when quantities allow, or turnaround demands it. Even when I do it in-house, if a client insists on UV I have a trade shop that will coat it for me.

One of the first jobs I did on a new Ricoh with Ploc was a magazine for a big hotel in DC. The text was all dull coated, and the cover was dull C1S. The uncoated side was the outside cover. It was a nicely designed piece and looked awesome!

 

[jwheeler]

It was cool way back when, but UV is the thermography of today

Agreed! I used to work at a shop that outsourced tons of thermo business cards to a trade printer called BCT (Business Cards Tomorrow).