Adobe lays off 900 staff - CS4 slow seller

[rich apollo]

Well, the glass is half-full or half-empty - depends on how you wanna' look at it. Sure, there are a few things I disagree with, but then there are some goodies, too.

Specifically; I don't care for the online help, I wish they hadn't changed the hot keys to go from channel to channel in Photoshop (what can I say, I'm inflexible), and InDesign still doesn't recognize (or protect) grayscale colorspaces.

On the other hand; you can turn overprint on and off for individual black elements in InDesign; the Convert Color dialogue in Acrobat now offers some real functionality; Photoshop now supports n-color, device link, and abstract profiles.

 

[khasmir]

Too much too much

Too much too much

I know many companies where they are not yet even using CS3 or where they are just in the process of switching... and then CS4 is released...

Sry Adobe but these are way too short release cycles, people are not money-cows, come on. And with the current economic climate I think nobody was waiting for CS4.
This time I think they pushed people too far and now they have to suffer the consequences.


Edit: the original article mentions 600 people losing their job, not 900 or am I missing something?

 

[tbiagiotti]

So far, I'm underwhelmed

So far, I'm underwhelmed

I have downloaded the demos for Illustrator and Indesign CS4. I own CS2, and can do most everything in CS2 at home that I can in CS3 when I'm at work.

Illustrator CS 4 didn't have any exciting upgrades in it, and that's sad. I told them back at CS(1) time that they should put the complete Dimensions package into their 3D filter. Apparently they weren't interested in doing that. Now I'm looking for something cheap that will handle 3D in the Postscript/vector environment as nicely as Dimensions did years ago.

I saw a couple of interesting things in Indesign CS4, but I still don't think it will do what I'm looking for -- especially in the variable image / data area.

 

[Mikeg69629]

I work in production and while I enjoy the bells and whistles, my primary goal is eliminating errors and proper color management and earlier versions of CS had those.
The new CS4 is very powerful but as someone stated earlier, what market is Adobe really trying to go after?
As an individual, there is no way I'd be able to afford to upgrade everytime.
I feel very badly that 900 people are now out of work regardless of the economy or their position in the company.

 

[mattf]

Printers have to follow what designers want. If a designer has CS4, we have to obtain CS4 to ensure the file will be read correctly. This goes for illustrator, photoshop and indesign. If we don't upgrade we lose customers, pure and simple. The cost of upgrading is at times steep, but I believe in the end if you are with those people that have "the latest and greatest" then you can keep up with it. Granted, some companies cannot afford it all, so it really depends.

 

[Tech]

I want to make sure I'm not being too harsh with CS4 and took a second look. One thing jump out like a sore thumb. The "new" tab function/window in InDesign is somewhat similar to Quark 6~8's layout function.

The different between the two is that Adobe is only using it as a tab window for sorting opened files and not layouts within a document. Quark's tab is at the bottom of screen vs Adobe's top.

Granted, it's prettier and likely more functional than Quark's take of it, I'm just not impressed.

 

[thomaus]

And yes, it does frustrate me no end when they change short-cuts! Arggghh. I used to be able to hit 'Z' in Acrobat and get the zoom tool. Now I'm hunting in the tool bar for it.

"To enable single-key shortcuts, open the Preferences dialog box, and under General, select the Use Single-Key Accelerators To Access Tools option."--Adobe web help. I've been having to re-enable the single-key accelerator option for the last couple versions, since they defaulted these off. Continuously annoying.

Overall, I'm amazed at this thread. I only counted 1.5 votes of approval for the new version. Maybe we should nickname CS4 as Adobe Vista.

I've always wished that there was some place to go to see reliable adoption or usage statistics. Especially during the early years of the Quark/InDesign battles.

The trend seems to be towards bloatware on these apps. By design, all market segments can use the suite. Print, digital, web, devices, forms, 3D, and documents all wrapped up together. This probably points to increased demand for more targeted (fuel-efficient) apps in the future that deliver the ability to do specific tasks well to compete against the giants.

 

[PDFninja]

Isn't it wonderful how Adobe are now behaving like Quark used to. As far as I'm aware you can't backsave Indesign to older versions and if you've bought the suite you can't buy individual upgrades, it has to be the whole lot which is expensive.
As everyone has said, CS4 is at least two CSs too far and I, for one, am not shelling out.
God bless PDF.

the closest you get to backsaving is Export, Indesign Interchange and you can select backward 1 version, given if you used new effects in CS3 they'll probably not show up in CS2.

we have CS1-3 in prepress at work and i know we won't get 4 for a while.

as for my home use i hardly find a 500 dollar necessity to move to CS3 from CS2.
i do design & digiphoto independently.

 

[khasmir]

Printers have to follow what designers want. If a designer has CS4, we have to obtain CS4 to ensure the file will be read correctly. This goes for illustrator, photoshop and indesign. If we don't upgrade we lose customers, pure and simple. The cost of upgrading is at times steep, but I believe in the end if you are with those people that have "the latest and greatest" then you can keep up with it. Granted, some companies cannot afford it all, so it really depends.

Sry mate but I do not agree, just tell the bloody designer to save back to CS3 whenever possible.
Also, if you can sell real added value to your product instead of just trying to be the cheapest printer out there, then you are in a stronger position to stimulate customers to follow certain rules when they supply files if they want you to print the job.

Quality before quantity, that is where you can make the difference.
If you want to be the cheapest printer that will accept any file, that is your choice.
And if you sit down with your customers or potential customers about this issue then you can usually find a solution that does not involve buying new software every 6 months.

Btw, many designers will supply CS4 files only because they can, not because there is a need to do so...

As I mentioned before, Adobe is the real problem here, too short release cycles, useless features, too much hype, ... I really wonder when was the last time they actually payed attention to the Graphical Industry. They only seem to think about designers, photographers, ... If you ask me then they couldn't care less about the printing and prepress problems caused by their software.

 

[Cory Smith]

Sry mate but I do not agree, just tell the bloody designer to save back to CS3 whenever possible.
Also, if you can sell real added value to your product instead of just trying to be the cheapest printer out there, then you are in a stronger position to stimulate customers to follow certain rules when they supply files if they want you to print the job.

That sounds good, but it's just is not a reality for many printers. There are 5 other printers trying to get that client. If you are going to be a PITA to work with (requiring clients backsave files, which will bite you eventually) they will just go elsewhere.

 

[Vee]

Yep, I agree with Cory.
I have several friends working at ad agencies, utility companies, hospitals, organizations of all shapes and sizes. Most of them follow this model: All jobs over $2500.00 US, are required to have a minimum of 3 bids from 3 different printing vendors. The cheaper guy gets the job. Under $2500.00, they just get the PO signed, and send it to the guys they like the best.

 

[PDFninja]

true. still its a sorry business model to follow.
when we spend 4 hours practically relaying out a job in prepress and we can't charge out because we got the job for being cheapest we loose money not make it.

we give away 100k a year easy in free prepress time to fix/relayout files with problems related to poor choice of layout software or to using every know text effect in CS3 that our ApogeeX lite system won't interpret correctly and it has to run on 40in plates so we can't redo an imposition for putting it on 26in plates that has a ApogeeX commercial system pushing that plate setter.

doing the job at a guaranteed price is garbage. when you get handed a turd to work with... polish it all you want. it won't be what the customer wanted cause it doesn't match their screen.

 

[Vee]

With all due respect....
Clearly it's a good business practice on their end if you are giving up 100k a year, to the customer. Maybe it's the business practices / procedures at your shop that need to be revisited. So you can keep that 100k.

Or just leave that work to the other "cheap guy"... pick your poison..

 

[PDFninja]

With all due respect....
Clearly it's a good business practice on their end if you are giving up 100k a year, to the customer. Maybe it's the business practices / procedures at your shop that need to be revisited. So you can keep that 100k.

Or just leave that work to the other "cheap guy"... pick your poison..

run that by the people they've laidoff

that doesn't even account for profitable jobs we could have been turning out the door either.
and from the months we tracked our freebies it averaged 65 hours per month x 3 of us @ 75/hour
thats closer to 200k. and yes some of that could be recoupted by billing practice i bet.

not much you can do when you try to be the cheapest & then you get the files. you're stuck with chicken and they want roast duck, at a discount price.

 

[Grnofslt]

Hi Everyone,

I've not bought any of the CS4 products yet, but I have used the Illustrator CS4 demo (sad that my 30 days ran out). I personally love the way they upgraded existing features. We use CS3 where I work for all our major typesetting, converting PDF files to Illustrator file, (our service providers will only accept Ai files or eps graphics). The way that they revamped smart guides, gradients, having the multiple art boards etc all are especially useful with what we do, Our service provider probably will tell us that we still have to save backwards to CS2 but they may have CS4 on one computer.

I am now just getting into learning the new features of InDesign CS4 and that program has had a major overhaul. I've been working through the Lynda.com videos and playing with the demo that I downloaded. Again, I'll be sad when the 30 days are up.

I have yet to play with Photoshop CS4, but will be looking forward to that after I finish with InDesign.

Now I work in a very backwards work flow, still using a camera and film to do line shots and opaquing pen to fill in pin holes. Like I mentioned in a post elsewhere, my bosses name is Mr slate and my nearest co-worker's name is Fred, and Betty works in my department.

That being said, the price of the suites as an upgrade really aren't that expensive, not for what you get. 599.00 US for the design premium version of the Suite, and look at what you get, Flash, Fireworks, Dreamweaver, Photoshop Extended, Illustrator, Indesign, and Acrobat 9 Pro. Now if one were to already have the creative suite on their system from a previous version, the enhancements to the work area alone might be worth the money. I agree that the initial price of software is expensive and while the creative Suites are expensive the first time buying, just think how expensive it would be if you had to purchase each application separately. Photoshop by itself costs over 650 for the full version from the average retailer. The suites are a bargain. If you are only in Print production, then you would probably only need the Standard version, which as an upgrade from a previous version of the Creative Suite is 499.00 US.

Now about the speed of the upgrade cycles of Adobe, I don't think a year and a half between upgrades is all that fast but rather that is about what it has been since 1999 when I first bought Photoshop 4. Apple has upgraded it's operating system a little less than every year and a half except for Tiger to Leopard.

Now at present I am not a business owner, but if I had a small printing shop and a couple good sized presses, I really believe that I would have the most up to date software just to be able to service my customer base. I would also pay to have my designer(s) and pre-press people trained to bring them up to speed. The shop that makes the investment in his people and in his equipment in order to provide services to his customers will be in the company that remains in business. The person who decides to not invest in his future is investing in his future failure.

Just my point of view

Bill Jacobs