Printservedigital
Well-known member
He could check the plate is flat against the drum and he has vacuum other than that, as you say it's a power issue.
rotarypower3
Well-known member
Thanks for the reply Steve. We've been running Azura for the last 1 1/2 years now, the laser power, focus and lens cleaning has been checked several times in that period. And only just a couple of months ago with the change to TS2. Our 2 current presses run different fountain solution.
Unfortunately, Agfa, over here in Oz, have not been of any help with our run length issues. You just get the "We have hundreds of people using these with no issues" statement, but no actual help.
It's disappointing really, aside from the poor run length and delicacy of the plates, I'm really happy with them.
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beermonster
Well-known member
well i dont run a press so i cant really comment on HOW they manage it.....
i'd deffo do a stage by stage investigate - starting with the ctp, then onto press with chemistry and conditions. what is your ctp by the way? we have a second hand screen 8000II - superb machine. Presses komori lithrone 40's. It could be your lasers are down on power? or maybe your particular machine might need a power boost to fuse the plate correctly - just fishing really but such low runs leans towards exposure imho
we run these plates with some really abrasive boards and there's plenty of debris in our presses. we tend to find first unit suffers most and if we need new plates they are always the units we do first
what inks are you using too? we run conventional, ice inks, really HARD drying inks, all manner of spots and metallics too, sometimes in the same job. the plates arent too hard wearing with metallics we find - but small cost for a couple of extra plates
i'd deffo do a stage by stage investigate - starting with the ctp, then onto press with chemistry and conditions. what is your ctp by the way? we have a second hand screen 8000II - superb machine. Presses komori lithrone 40's. It could be your lasers are down on power? or maybe your particular machine might need a power boost to fuse the plate correctly - just fishing really but such low runs leans towards exposure imho
we run these plates with some really abrasive boards and there's plenty of debris in our presses. we tend to find first unit suffers most and if we need new plates they are always the units we do first
what inks are you using too? we run conventional, ice inks, really HARD drying inks, all manner of spots and metallics too, sometimes in the same job. the plates arent too hard wearing with metallics we find - but small cost for a couple of extra plates
Printservedigital
Well-known member
"We have hundreds of people using these with no issues" "
A familiar Agfa story across the industry I'm afraid here in the UK too.
"check the plate is flat against the drum and he has vacuum" would change your focal length!!
A familiar Agfa story across the industry I'm afraid here in the UK too.
"check the plate is flat against the drum and he has vacuum" would change your focal length!!
Printservedigital
Well-known member
"The goal of modern manufacturing is to have processes that have the capability of being inherently consistent and to avoid continuous inspection where ever possible."
Problem is with large newsprint and the technology required this is not always often the case.
For example there are many prepress's in Newsprint that rely on outside temperature to control their prepress humidity which can have grave production consequences on some of the Advatange and Polaris equipment.
We had an "upgrade" in chemistry once from our supplier and the rise in the PH caused the silicone to leech from the rubber rollers in the processor, we got the usual "Non of our other customers have any problems" yet they had to change upwards of 80 rollers in three processors to stop the plate slippage and contamination.
When your reliant on the integrity of your supplier as a one stop shop it can sometimes be awfully difficult to prove a cause, this is where the monitoring data helps.
Had we not monitored the PH on a daily basis we wouldn't have known the changes as a source of the problem and might well have had to spend some £40,000-£60,000 + on recovering rollers.
So was it worth spending 15 mins per day monitoring 3 processors for PH changes? ... Ask our Financial Director!!!!!
Problem is with large newsprint and the technology required this is not always often the case.
For example there are many prepress's in Newsprint that rely on outside temperature to control their prepress humidity which can have grave production consequences on some of the Advatange and Polaris equipment.
We had an "upgrade" in chemistry once from our supplier and the rise in the PH caused the silicone to leech from the rubber rollers in the processor, we got the usual "Non of our other customers have any problems" yet they had to change upwards of 80 rollers in three processors to stop the plate slippage and contamination.
When your reliant on the integrity of your supplier as a one stop shop it can sometimes be awfully difficult to prove a cause, this is where the monitoring data helps.
Had we not monitored the PH on a daily basis we wouldn't have known the changes as a source of the problem and might well have had to spend some £40,000-£60,000 + on recovering rollers.
So was it worth spending 15 mins per day monitoring 3 processors for PH changes? ... Ask our Financial Director!!!!!
rotarypower3
Well-known member
Thanks for the tips everyone. I'll atempt to get the focus checked again, but I did watch the tech do it with the change to TS. And we both decided which strip looked the best.
Inks are TOYO - Tru Image.
Presses ATM are an old Heidelberg Speedmaster 74 (2col) and a 2 month old Komori Lithrone 29 (5col)
...
The CTP is an old Screen PTR4300. It's been pretty reliable and consistant for an old girl.
Inks are TOYO - Tru Image.
Presses ATM are an old Heidelberg Speedmaster 74 (2col) and a 2 month old Komori Lithrone 29 (5col)
...
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beermonster
Well-known member
gotcha
can't confess to being familiar with those inks at all - i'm guessing agfa say they are fine to use
not sure how accurate the visual test you and the tech did - might LOOK the best but was sufficient power reached to fuse the plate correctly
i know you've done it, but i'd check on the power of the lasers (is that focus as well?) - a certain amount of power needs to be attained then the fusing process happens, not enough power = incorrectly fused plate
anything abnormal on the presses? too much pressure? packing? stuff like that? (clutching at straws)
can't confess to being familiar with those inks at all - i'm guessing agfa say they are fine to use
not sure how accurate the visual test you and the tech did - might LOOK the best but was sufficient power reached to fuse the plate correctly
i know you've done it, but i'd check on the power of the lasers (is that focus as well?) - a certain amount of power needs to be attained then the fusing process happens, not enough power = incorrectly fused plate
anything abnormal on the presses? too much pressure? packing? stuff like that? (clutching at straws)
rotarypower - can't Agfa burn you a set of plates themselves so that you could eliminate any local ctp related issues? I know you said they're not very responsive in Oz, but that's not much to ask for!
I'd run you out a set myself on our 4300S, but we're in the UK so the postage might be a bit steep.
I can't comment on the run length as we're strictly short run and 15K is the longest we run on a regular weekly basis. The press minders say that the plates are pretty robust, we log any plate spoilage (for example scratching) and it's very low.
rotarypower3
Well-known member
Thanks for offer lfelton, getting some Azura's run elsewhere was going to be my next on my list.
..
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rotarypower3
Well-known member
Thanks everyone for the tips, especially SteveAgfa for the informative PM's.
I had a look at the power settings on the platesetter, it's running 100% power at 750rpm. It was running 500rpm on the old Azura's, not sure what power though. But we were having the same issues with the old plates anyway.
We have a job on the press ATM that has a common background plate. All the various books using this common plate equate to about an 80K run. We were getting 15K out of the common plate and that was stretching it. So I thought the only way I could get more "fusing" on the plate was to drop the drum speed. I dropped it down to 400rpm so I'd get a real difference, it took 10mins to expose it at that speed. The Agfa exposure bar was really strong with no difference from one end to the other. On press the guys didn't notice any difference in the print, but last time I checked, they were up to 39K on the one plate!
I just can't believe that Agfa or Screen over here couldn't work this out over the 1 1/2 years we've been running Azura's. I'll have to get the Agfa tech out to find the right balance of power and drum speed. But at least, finally, I can see where the problem lies.
..
I had a look at the power settings on the platesetter, it's running 100% power at 750rpm. It was running 500rpm on the old Azura's, not sure what power though. But we were having the same issues with the old plates anyway.
We have a job on the press ATM that has a common background plate. All the various books using this common plate equate to about an 80K run. We were getting 15K out of the common plate and that was stretching it. So I thought the only way I could get more "fusing" on the plate was to drop the drum speed. I dropped it down to 400rpm so I'd get a real difference, it took 10mins to expose it at that speed. The Agfa exposure bar was really strong with no difference from one end to the other. On press the guys didn't notice any difference in the print, but last time I checked, they were up to 39K on the one plate!
I just can't believe that Agfa or Screen over here couldn't work this out over the 1 1/2 years we've been running Azura's. I'll have to get the Agfa tech out to find the right balance of power and drum speed. But at least, finally, I can see where the problem lies.
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Printservedigital
Well-known member
"100% power "
You're gonna burn out your laser out using 100% power for there is something drastically wrong if you're having to use 100% laser power , if you have dropped the speed and your getting better results it sounds more like an optical or calibration issue.
You're gonna burn out your laser out using 100% power for there is something drastically wrong if you're having to use 100% laser power , if you have dropped the speed and your getting better results it sounds more like an optical or calibration issue.
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Rotary:
Glad to hear you are getting better results.
However, your initial settings appear to be
correct. For some reason, the delivered
intensity doesn't meet expectations... be
it focus, dirt, etc... but hey - I'm in sales.
As you can see, the wide exposure latitude
of Azura can mask an under-fused plate.
Regards,
Glad to hear you are getting better results.
However, your initial settings appear to be
correct. For some reason, the delivered
intensity doesn't meet expectations... be
it focus, dirt, etc... but hey - I'm in sales.
As you can see, the wide exposure latitude
of Azura can mask an under-fused plate.
Regards,
Printservedigital
Well-known member
Of course Steve, but I've seen also where parameters have had to be changed when Agfa service engineers come in on their service contract and undoubtedly tell us our Laser power needs increasing or our PWM needs adjustment for no other reason other than what seemed to be difference of opinion on what they see on the plate.
Moments after they've gone we have adjusted it back to what works "for us" that I think being the key, however if an Agfa engineer had ever said to me set it at 100% LP I would have thrown him outta the building with an invite to speak to one of the design engineers who taught me, from Strobbe, the company (CTP device manufacturer) that had the deal to design and brand their Kit as Agfa units.
Of course they don't manufacture the drum units but Im 100% certain that they would say the same about something requiring 100%LP as being wrong.
Another question I would ask is does the drum unit use "filters" on it's optics, it could be that if it does the filter setting is wrong or the filter wheel is stuck.
Moments after they've gone we have adjusted it back to what works "for us" that I think being the key, however if an Agfa engineer had ever said to me set it at 100% LP I would have thrown him outta the building with an invite to speak to one of the design engineers who taught me, from Strobbe, the company (CTP device manufacturer) that had the deal to design and brand their Kit as Agfa units.
Of course they don't manufacture the drum units but Im 100% certain that they would say the same about something requiring 100%LP as being wrong.
Another question I would ask is does the drum unit use "filters" on it's optics, it could be that if it does the filter setting is wrong or the filter wheel is stuck.
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SteveAgfa
Well-known member
PrintServe:
Different imaging systems have different operating parameters and laser/optical recommendations.
Not reading all your background, I suspect you have experience with our green Polaris devices. True,
imaging recommendations for this would certainly be different from that of a Screen 4300 thermal laser.
Now, if you have experience with our Advantage line of CTP gear for the newspaper market, perhaps you weren't aware that we brought that to life after our AutoLogic acquisition; the initial units were made in
Wilmington MA USA.
WRT Rotary... I'm now suspecting that the plate gauge could be incorrectly defined - ergo incorrect focus.
These things are best left to the local support experts, as certainly I'm not tech support.
Regards,
Different imaging systems have different operating parameters and laser/optical recommendations.
Not reading all your background, I suspect you have experience with our green Polaris devices. True,
imaging recommendations for this would certainly be different from that of a Screen 4300 thermal laser.
Now, if you have experience with our Advantage line of CTP gear for the newspaper market, perhaps you weren't aware that we brought that to life after our AutoLogic acquisition; the initial units were made in
Wilmington MA USA.
WRT Rotary... I'm now suspecting that the plate gauge could be incorrectly defined - ergo incorrect focus.
These things are best left to the local support experts, as certainly I'm not tech support.
Regards,
Printservedigital
Well-known member
Like I initially said Plate focus due to vacuum issues or what you said . plate gauge.
But I agree, Steve until a local tech can "SEE" the workings then it's irrelevant to assume.
My background is Krause LS jet and Drum Green and Violet., Agfa Polaris, Advantage Green and Violet Laser.
And yes I know one of the autologic guys , I worked with him when he got made redundant , set his own company up and worked with Krause.
But I agree, Steve until a local tech can "SEE" the workings then it's irrelevant to assume.
My background is Krause LS jet and Drum Green and Violet., Agfa Polaris, Advantage Green and Violet Laser.
And yes I know one of the autologic guys , I worked with him when he got made redundant , set his own company up and worked with Krause.
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