An experiment in Lean?

[Deleted member 16349]

This would be for any small printer in the Toronto area.

An interesting experiment in Lean would be to do some testing of the Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) concept on a unit of one of your small presses.

The ITB eliminates the density variation of ink/water balance by decoupling the interaction of ink feed and water feed. Basically this means that even if one changes the water setting, the density will not change. Can not be washed out. The density will also not change if the press speed changes or the roller train temperature changes.

I'll build you a unit at my cost for you to test as long as you make the test results public. If there are any curious printers in Toronto, who are keen on seeing how the process can be changed, you can contact me at [email protected] .

Erik

 

[mkeif]

Erik,

Have you considered talking w/ Ryerson University about doing some testing? They may not be interested in doing it for free but it wouldn't hurt to ask. I'm sure if they did the testing they would be delighted to publish the results.

Malcolm

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Erik,

Have you considered talking w/ Ryerson University about doing some testing? They may not be interested in doing it for free but it wouldn't hurt to ask. I'm sure if they did the testing they would be delighted to publish the results.

Malcolm

The whole point of testing the ITB and making the results public is to demonstrate the science behind the concept of having a forced ink feed to the industry. It is not to demonstrate it to me since I know what it already does.

A positive or forced ink feed decouples the ink and water relationship with respect to density control. The ITB is not a product. It potentially can be but it is aimed mainly at press manufacturers. The ITB is just one way to solve this problem which has been around for over a hundred years in the industry. It is also a very low cost way to solve it.

I have tried to interest Ryerson for almost ten years, in the science of this problem. Last year I even talked with them but they showed not interest. I have found this very common that graphic arts educational institutions are not very interested in new knowledge. One would think that they would be interested in understanding the fundamental issues of the process but it turns out they tend to be more interested in the existing technologies than science.

This is unfortunate because Ryerson would have been ideal. But I am hoping that a small printer in Toronto will be interested and if they are they could have an opportunity to get the technology developed for them at cost, if they liked the results. The important thing is to get the knowledge public, that the ink/water balancing problem is solvable. This is not a chemical process. Consistency and then predictability is possible. This is certainly a Lean goal.

 

[Green Printer]

Erik

I differ on the chemical. It always has been and always will be a combo issue of chemical and mechanical. In offset litho the two issues of mechanics and chemistry are inseparable.
With bad chemistry the best mechanics cannot work properly and vise versa with bad mechanics the chemistry cannot work as intended.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Erik

I differ on the chemical. It always has been and always will be a combo issue of chemical and mechanical. In offset litho the two issues of mechanics and chemistry are inseparable.
With bad chemistry the best mechanics cannot work properly and vise versa with bad mechanics the chemistry cannot work as intended.

It is not a chemical process because there are basically no chemical reactions. Chemicals are used, that is true but chemicals or materials are used in many processes but that does not define them as chemical processes.

The chemicals provide physical properties that are needed but one could say that for many physical processes. By calling it a chemical process is misleading and has made people think that the solution to the density control problem is somehow related to the chemicals. In offset, the basic use for fount solution in combination with ink and plate is to separate the image from the non image areas. That is basically all it is used for. The density control problem is strickly mechanical and is based on the mass transport of ink in the roller train which is very much affected by the type of ink feed on the press. They ARE separate issues.

Even in waterless offset, there are physical properties related to the ink, image and non image surface of the plate that provide the ability to ink only the image area. Again, no chemical reactions. With waterless offset there are still density variations even without fountain solution. These variation are related to the mechanical design of the press with respect to how it feeds and managed ink in the roller train.

I would totally agree, that if some of these components, mechanical or chemical are not working properly, there will be problems but that is true about any process. What I am interested in is looking at the process with the assumption of everything is working as they were desgned to work. Then the question becomes, how does the design of the technology affect performance and how can one change the design to improve performance.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Erik

I differ on the chemical. It always has been and always will be a combo issue of chemical and mechanical. In offset litho the two issues of mechanics and chemistry are inseparable.
.

Green Printer, To make a much shorter answer.

The reason why I would like to have a local printer do the tests is so that it can be shown publicly that things don't work quite as printers, such as yourself, thought they did. Lots of talk does not work as well as a demonstration.

 

[Michael Josefowicz]

Erik-

Might you consider doing a test in Rhode Island? To be clear, I'm not the person who can say yes. But there is a potentially interesting situation. One of the design schools in RI has recently eliminated it's graphic design program. The reason, as I understand it, was that the cost of equipment is more than the school can afford.

So, my thought is to find a local printer who is willing to exchange some appropriate downtime to meet the need for an equipment rich environment for graphic designers. My thought is that perhaps the sweetener of ITB might get the appropriate people closer to a Yes.

 

[mattf]

Erik-

Might you consider doing a test in Rhode Island? To be clear, I'm not the person who can say yes. But there is a potentially interesting situation. One of the design schools in RI has recently eliminated it's graphic design program. The reason, as I understand it, was that the cost of equipment is more than the school can afford.

So, my thought is to find a local printer who is willing to exchange some appropriate downtime to meet the need for an equipment rich environment for graphic designers. My thought is that perhaps the sweetener of ITB might get the appropriate people closer to a Yes.

The Print CEO Blog - Printing Industry News - Rhode Island College Drops Graphic Communication Concentration

RI college is dropping their Graphic Communications major. I think it has to do with the economy and to use the resources of the major in other areas. One of the teachers is Dr. Collins, and he has always had support from local printers. Since he is retiring, this is really about the top people in the college and what they think is best for the whole college, and at this moment they think the major isn't worth it. Also someone had commented about how they don't know how to manage his job, so they just will forget about it and that will be that.

Sad story about the major though :/

 

[Michael Josefowicz]

Thanks for the info.

From my 7 years of experience teaching at a prestigious NYC design college, my bet is that you have hit the nail on the head when you say that no one knows how to replace the person who has been running the program. My bet that the "no money for equipment" is probably true, but doesn't really explain why the decision was made.

So...suppose they could be shown how to use seasoned Baby Boomers with deep experience in the field and a program of distance learning and some regular face to face meetings?

Do you think anyone might give this approach hearing to revitalize the program?

 

[mattf]

Thanks for the info.

From my 7 years of experience teaching at a prestigious NYC design college, my bet is that you have hit the nail on the head when you say that no one knows how to replace the person who has been running the program. My bet that the "no money for equipment" is probably true, but doesn't really explain why the decision was made.

So...suppose they could be shown how to use seasoned Baby Boomers with deep experience in the field and a program of distance learning and some regular face to face meetings?

Do you think anyone might give this approach hearing to revitalize the program?

Again, if we are continuing the discussion concerning Erik's idea about this experiment I believe this could be achieved. Problem is there needs to be someone in the college who can manage it. You need someone within the college to communicate with all the local printers and on top of that with Erik on how to make all this work. Whether there is someone in the local area who can do this is an issue, and whether Erik can head off to the small state of "Rho Disland!" would be some things to discuss. Sadly, I have been a resident of this small state in the city of Warwick for about 3 months now! Nice to hear some people who are in the region.

 

[Michael Josefowicz]

Again, if we are continuing the discussion concerning Erik's idea about this experiment I believe this could be achieved.

Yes. From my point of view the driver is what Erik is trying to do. If he's correct, RI College gets lots of publicity and increases it's brand as a potential center of innovation in Print. There is a pretty good chance that someone at RI College sees the value of increasing the perception of their brand. And without ANY money invested in "advertising/marketing." Brand goes up, enrollment goes up. Enrollment goes up, everybody is happy.

Problem is there needs to be someone in the college who can manage it. You need someone within the college to communicate with all the local printers and on top of that with Erik on how to make all this work. Whether there is someone in the local area who can do this is an issue, and whether Erik can head off to the small state of "Rho Disland!" would be some things to discuss.

Good points. But, given the capabilites of distance learning, communicating through the internet, my skill set and some contacts I have in RI, I think this could be solved relatively easily. If and only if there is someone at the school who buys in. If that is possible, everything else is doable. If that doesn't happen. Nothing can happen.

Sadly, I have been a resident of this small state in the city of Warwick for about 3 months now! Nice to hear some people who are in the region.

Ah! The wonders of the internet and a special thanks to Print Planet. Ain't life grand?

 

[mattf]

Yes. From my point of view the driver is what Erik is trying to do. If he's correct, RI College gets lots of publicity and increases it's brand as a potential center of innovation in Print. There is a pretty good chance that someone at RI College sees the value of increasing the perception of their brand. And without ANY money invested in "advertising/marketing." Brand goes up, enrollment goes up. Enrollment goes up, everybody is happy.


Good points. But, given the capabilites of distance learning, communicating through the internet, my skill set and some contacts I have in RI, I think this could be solved relatively easily. If and only if there is someone at the school who buys in. If that is possible, everything else is doable. If that doesn't happen. Nothing can happen.



Ah! The wonders of the internet and a special thanks to Print Planet. Ain't life grand?

Good stuff, now all you gotta do is get with Erik and make it happen. Good luck!

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Yes. From my point of view the driver is what Erik is trying to do. If he's correct, RI College gets lots of publicity and increases it's brand as a potential center of innovation in Print. There is a pretty good chance that someone at RI College sees the value of increasing the perception of their brand. And without ANY money invested in "advertising/marketing." Brand goes up, enrollment goes up. Enrollment goes up, everybody is happy.


Good points. But, given the capabilities of distance learning, communicating through the Internet, my skill set and some contacts I have in RI, I think this could be solved relatively easily. If and only if there is someone at the school who buys in. If that is possible, everything else is doable. If that doesn't happen. Nothing can happen.

Michael and Mattf,

The idea is not so bad but there are problems. One is that I work full time at a food packaging company doing process engineering and am not available to travel.

I have tried doing "distance development" before and it has not worked out so well. Once with a school on the west coast. There was some interest but after about 7 months, they realized that they did not have the skills to do the work. Another time was with a printer in Australia. Again months wasted and basically due to the lack of the specific skills required to fabricate parts etc.

The only time it worked was with a press manufacturer in Europe where the design engineers there could design and fabricate a simple version of the ITB, which we tested when I went there to give a seminar. But of course, they would not make the results public.

The ITB is potentially a product but it is also a very low cost way of demonstrating the science which would be useful to a school that was interested. To demonstrate the science, the ITB can be made much simpler than required for a production version.

Not only would it demonstrate the breaking of the interrelationship of ink and water, it can also be used to test other interesting issues on press from presetting to different methods of applying dampening solution to the press that potentially is less troublesome, maybe alcohol free solutions. I had a list of experiments that the school could have done for this purpose.

The real problem, as has been mentioned, with any long distance effort is who is at the other end. My view is that it needs to be an engineer who can design details for the target press. Otherwise it is not very practical. That is why I am looking for a printer locally. It would be much easier for me to work with the printer locally and do the design work.

But if someone in RI is interested and has an engineer who is keen on helping, I would not rule it out.

The best solution would be a Toronto based small printer. Unfortunately, there is not much curiousity in the Toronto printing community so far.

 

[mattf]

Yes. From my point of view the driver is what Erik is trying to do. If he's correct, RI College gets lots of publicity and increases it's brand as a potential center of innovation in Print. There is a pretty good chance that someone at RI College sees the value of increasing the perception of their brand. And without ANY money invested in "advertising/marketing." Brand goes up, enrollment goes up. Enrollment goes up, everybody is happy.


Good points. But, given the capabilities of distance learning, communicating through the Internet, my skill set and some contacts I have in RI, I think this could be solved relatively easily. If and only if there is someone at the school who buys in. If that is possible, everything else is doable. If that doesn't happen. Nothing can happen.

Michael and Mattf,

The idea is not so bad but there are problems. One is that I work full time at a food packaging company doing process engineering and am not available to travel.

I have tried doing "distance development" before and it has not worked out so well. Once with a school on the west coast. There was some interest but after about 7 months, they realized that they did not have the skills to do the work. Another time was with a printer in Australia. Again months wasted and basically due to the lack of the specific skills required to fabricate parts etc.

The only time it worked was with a press manufacturer in Europe where the design engineers there could design and fabricate a simple version of the ITB, which we tested when I went there to give a seminar. But of course, they would not make the results public.

The ITB is potentially a product but it is also a very low cost way of demonstrating the science which would be useful to a school that was interested. To demonstrate the science, the ITB can be made much simpler than required for a production version.

Not only would it demonstrate the breaking of the interrelationship of ink and water, it can also be used to test other interesting issues on press from presetting to different methods of applying dampening solution to the press that potentially is less troublesome, maybe alcohol free solutions. I had a list of experiments that the school could have done for this purpose.

The real problem, as has been mentioned, with any long distance effort is who is at the other end. My view is that it needs to be an engineer who can design details for the target press. Otherwise it is not very practical. That is why I am looking for a printer locally. It would be much easier for me to work with the printer locally and do the design work.

But if someone in RI is interested and has an engineer who is keen on helping, I would not rule it out.

The best solution would be a Toronto based small printer. Unfortunately, there is not much curiousity in the Toronto printing community so far.

Yes. From my point of view the driver is what Erik is trying to do. If he's correct, RI College gets lots of publicity and increases it's brand as a potential center of innovation in Print. There is a pretty good chance that someone at RI College sees the value of increasing the perception of their brand. And without ANY money invested in "advertising/marketing." Brand goes up, enrollment goes up. Enrollment goes up, everybody is happy.


Good points. But, given the capabilities of distance learning, communicating through the Internet, my skill set and some contacts I have in RI, I think this could be solved relatively easily. If and only if there is someone at the school who buys in. If that is possible, everything else is doable. If that doesn't happen. Nothing can happen.

Michael and Mattf,

The idea is not so bad but there are problems. One is that I work full time at a food packaging company doing process engineering and am not available to travel.

I have tried doing "distance development" before and it has not worked out so well. Once with a school on the west coast. There was some interest but after about 7 months, they realized that they did not have the skills to do the work. Another time was with a printer in Australia. Again months wasted and basically due to the lack of the specific skills required to fabricate parts etc.

The only time it worked was with a press manufacturer in Europe where the design engineers there could design and fabricate a simple version of the ITB, which we tested when I went there to give a seminar. But of course, they would not make the results public.

The ITB is potentially a product but it is also a very low cost way of demonstrating the science which would be useful to a school that was interested. To demonstrate the science, the ITB can be made much simpler than required for a production version.

Not only would it demonstrate the breaking of the interrelationship of ink and water, it can also be used to test other interesting issues on press from presetting to different methods of applying dampening solution to the press that potentially is less troublesome, maybe alcohol free solutions. I had a list of experiments that the school could have done for this purpose.

The real problem, as has been mentioned, with any long distance effort is who is at the other end. My view is that it needs to be an engineer who can design details for the target press. Otherwise it is not very practical. That is why I am looking for a printer locally. It would be much easier for me to work with the printer locally and do the design work.

But if someone in RI is interested and has an engineer who is keen on helping, I would not rule it out.

The best solution would be a Toronto based small printer. Unfortunately, there is not much curiousity in the Toronto printing community so far.

Erik:

Thanks for the info, there are no engineers at my company who would be able to design the machine for the target press. We don't have any engineers for starters, thats why I think Michael thought a good solution would be to get RI college involved, as they would potentially be able to design work to test the press. However, there is no specific engineering major at the college, so our best bet would be to find a school with a engineering background that could handle this sort of work. A school comes to mind...

MIT! Right in Boston, their engineering program is renowned across the country. Not sure if its something you were looking for, but it could be an interesting idea. Have MIT design and build the machine, take it to maybe RI college so they can test it. Any issues MIT students can easily head down to do what they need.

It would be nice to have MIT test it, but there isn't any specific print or media programs there. Just a suggestion if you feel this will work.

 

[Michael Josefowicz]

Erik-
Could you specify the skill sets that an onsite engineer would need? If I know what we're looking for , you never know....

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Erik-
Could you specify the skill sets that an onsite engineer would need? If I know what we're looking for , you never know....

quote=It would be nice to have MIT test it, but there isn't any specific print or media programs there. Just a suggestion if you feel this will work. quote.

Michael and Mattf,

MIT would be a bit too much although it does sound great. MIT, an engineer's dream.

Back to reality. An engineer would be ideal but a cleaver mechanic would also work. It needs someone who can detail simple concepts and make parts, cut metal, drill holes, etc. Some people have no idea how to do this and it would not be fair to ask them to. At least it needs someone who is mechanically inclined and can fabricate parts.

Let's put this into perspective. This is not a complicated machine. The Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) is basically something like a scrapper blade and requires an extra pickup roller. The roller has to be mounted on the press and be in contact with the existing ductor roller. The ductor roller needs to be fixed in one position against the next roller in the roller train. The blade in the simplest form, which can be used for demonstrating the science, can be as simple as a nylon thin plate bolted to a support bar and which rests against the ink fountain roller. The blade assembly should have some arrangement to engage and disengage the blade, probably with small air cylinders. The details really depends on the specific press.

Just as a reminder, the ITB technology has a Canadian patent #2,288,354 and a US patent # 6,857,366. If you want to read up on the description there, that might help or it might make things more confusing.

If one thinks of the ITB as a simple scrapper blade that rests against the ink fountain roller and scraps all the ink metered by the ink key. The collected ink at the tip of the blade is then picked up by the pickup roller. This results in a positive feed of ink into the press that is not affected by water, temperature and press speed. The action of the ink metered by the ink key and positive transfer by the ITB results in a constant displacement pump. A very simple version of one.

When the press is feeding paper for printing, the ITB is engaged but when the paper is not fed, the ITB is disengaged so that it does not transfer ink. The other advantage is that the ITB results in a more continuous ink feed as opposed to the intermittent ink feed with the normal ductor action.

For production printing the blade has to be a little different but this simple explanation should give you the idea of the concept. Just thinking... ITB-MIT.... ohooo sounds so good but not really needed.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Any curious Toronto printers out there?

Any curious Toronto printers out there?

This would be for any small printer in the Toronto area.

An interesting experiment in Lean would be to do some testing of the Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) concept on a unit of one of your small presses.

The ITB eliminates the density variation of ink/water balance by decoupling the interaction of ink feed and water feed. Basically this means that even if one changes the water setting, the density will not change. Can not be washed out. The density will also not change if the press speed changes or the roller train temperature changes.

I'll build you a unit at my cost for you to test as long as you make the test results public. If there are any curious printers in Toronto, who are keen on seeing how the process can be changed, you can contact me at [email protected] .

Erik

Just renewing my offer. I am still looking for an interested small printer in the Toronto area.

Any science minded printers out there that are curious in finding out how the process can be improved and maybe have the opportunity to change their process to be more consistent?

Erik

 

[Deleted member 16349]

This would be for any small printer in the Toronto area.

An interesting experiment in Lean would be to do some testing of the Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) concept on a unit of one of your small presses.

The ITB eliminates the density variation of ink/water balance by decoupling the interaction of ink feed and water feed. Basically this means that even if one changes the water setting, the density will not change. Can not be washed out. The density will also not change if the press speed changes or the roller train temperature changes.

I'll build you a unit at my cost for you to test as long as you make the test results public. If there are any curious printers in Toronto, who are keen on seeing how the process can be changed, you can contact me at [email protected] .

Erik

Just renewing my offer again.

I am still looking for an interested small printer in the Toronto area.

Any science minded printers out there that are curious in finding out how the process can be improved and maybe have the opportunity to change their process to be more consistent?

Erik
[email protected]

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Toronto printers Hello, anybody home.

Toronto printers Hello, anybody home.

This would be for any small printer in the Toronto area.

An interesting experiment in Lean would be to do some testing of the Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) concept on a unit of one of your small presses.

The ITB eliminates the density variation of ink/water balance by decoupling the interaction of ink feed and water feed. Basically this means that even if one changes the water setting, the density will not change. Can not be washed out. The density will also not change if the press speed changes or the roller train temperature changes.

I'll build you a unit at my cost for you to test as long as you make the test results public. If there are any curious printers in Toronto, who are keen on seeing how the process can be changed, you can contact me at [email protected] .

Erik

Just renewing my offer again.

I am still looking for an interested small printer in the Toronto area.

Any science minded printers out there that are curious in finding out how the process can be improved and maybe have the opportunity to change their process to be more consistent?

Erik
[email protected]

 

[Deleted member 16349]

A small printer in Toronto could benefit.

A small printer in Toronto could benefit.

This would be for any small printer in the Toronto area.

An interesting experiment in Lean would be to do some testing of the Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) concept on a unit of one of your small presses.

The ITB eliminates the density variation of ink/water balance by decoupling the interaction of ink feed and water feed. Basically this means that even if one changes the water setting, the density will not change. Can not be washed out. The density will also not change if the press speed changes or the roller train temperature changes.

I'll build you a unit at my cost for you to test as long as you make the test results public. If there are any curious printers in Toronto, who are keen on seeing how the process can be changed, you can contact me at [email protected] .

Erik

Just renewing my offer again.

I am still looking for an interested small printer in the Toronto area.

Any science minded printers out there that are curious in finding out how the process can be improved and maybe have the opportunity to change their process to be more consistent?

With the economy the way it is, this might be somthing that helps.

Erik
[email protected]