Creating Realistic Proofs

[BeauchampT]

I apologize if this question displays a woeful lack of understanding or regard for colour management, but...

Have a hard time at my plant making people realize that it is literaly impossible for us to perfectly match our proof because of paper white variations (currently we run the ISO standard, but the paper we print on is significantly bluer - a delta E of 2 to 3)

I've tried the very simple approach of: "Look, a black only screen. See how the hue is different from the proof in the same way the paper is a different hue?" That approach doesn't seem to explain the difference to everyone.

What I am hoping to do is to create an icc profile for our proofer that simulates more accurately how our product will look on the paper we run. Not going to use it for every proof, but just as a training/reference tool. I have a vague idea how to do this, but was looking for some info on how I could build an icc profile when all I really want to do is shift the paper white. Help???

p.s. Mickey Mouse solutions would be perfect - I thrive on these

 

[Alois Senefelder]

A Visit is required !!!

A Visit is required !!!

BeauchampT

Visit Gordo's "Quality in Print" blog



Regards, Alois

 

[kansasquaker]

If you want a really quick, easy, mickey mouse demo . . .

Print a giant solid block of your press paper's white point on your proofer.
Run that sheet (after it's good and dry) back through the proofer with your normal proofing setup.
Separately, print the same proof on virgin proof stock.

Have others compare. Done, 5 minute fix.

And before anybody bashes the idea - the color probably won't be all that accurate. His purpose is just to show how paper white affects hue. This should suffice.

 

[gordo]

[snip]
Have a hard time at my plant making people realize that it is literaly impossible for us to perfectly match our proof because of paper white variations (currently we run the ISO standard, but the paper we print on is significantly bluer - a delta E of 2 to 3)
[snip]

What I am hoping to do is to create an icc profile for our proofer that simulates more accurately how our product will look on the paper we run. [snip]

It may not be the "color" of white that's the problem.
Buy a fluorescent black light (~$10).
In a dark room, shine it on your proof paper and your press paper.
Your press paper will likely glow but your proofing paper will likely not.
Use this method to find a proofing substrate that has a similar Optical Brightening Agent content to your press sheets. I.e. proofing paper with a similar glow.
See here: Quality In Print: The issues of Optical Brightening Agents in paper and ink - part 5 of 5
That may help reduce the mismatch.

best, gordo

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

I think this points out the flaw with a single medium proofing workflow. We have a brand new epson 7900 with inline spectro and can pump out gracol certified proofs all day long, yet, we have some customers that would rather see a proof on actual stock off our Indigo. And sometimes I cannot blame them, part of the proofing process has nothing to do with color, but rather things like feel, texture, ink absorption, how the tooth of the paper looks on a solid ink area, etc...

Epson's are great, the color is great, but in the real world we don't run 96 bright silk stock all day long do it would be nice to be able to simulate the "feel" of a broader range of stocks...

 

[rich apollo]

It's easy to adjust the white point of a profile. If you want to PM me I can help you out with that. Also, are you doing a paper simulation on your proofs? If you aren't running proofing paper that is at least close to the white point of your printing stock, then you HAVE to simulate the paper white on your proofs.

 

[BeauchampT]

It may not be the "color" of white that's the problem.
Buy a fluorescent black light (~$10).
In a dark room, shine it on your proof paper and your press paper.
Your press paper will likely glow but your proofing paper will likely not.
Use this method to find a proofing substrate that has a similar Optical Brightening Agent content to your press sheets. I.e. proofing paper with a similar glow.
See here: Quality In Print: The issues of Optical Brightening Agents in paper and ink - part 5 of 5
That may help reduce the mismatch.

best, gordo

Thanks for the hint, but...tried that. We don't really have OBA in the paper we run. Currently our proof paper actually has more OBA than our running paper.

I like your blog though. Very helpful

 

[chevalier]

I have a FinalProof and an Epson9900 with Spectro both calibrated GRACoL G7 (with higher paperwhite tolerance). For most of my work the proofs are damn near spot on (SBS paperboard with AQ gloss coating). My biggest issues with proofs are less related to substrate and more related to coatings. I have yet to find a financially reasonable way to proof cartons with both spot UV gloss coatings and UV matte varnishes which has become a very popular combo. We have customers producing cartons with soft-touch and UV gloss combos now as well. We tend to push for press approvals for such high-end work. The constant complaint when the press sheets are reviewed is "the matte killed my color but the proof didn't show that".

I've looked into some Roland proofers but they dramatically sacrifice color gamut and the cost is high. I'm investigating Esko's Studio Visualizer as it can create VMRL files simulating foils and coatings. At least that way a customer can get an on-screen proof.

Suggestions?

 

[David Milisock]

I apologize if this question displays a woeful lack of understanding or regard for colour management, but...

Have a hard time at my plant making people realize that it is literaly impossible for us to perfectly match our proof because of paper white variations (currently we run the ISO standard, but the paper we print on is significantly bluer - a delta E of 2 to 3)

I've tried the very simple approach of: "Look, a black only screen. See how the hue is different from the proof in the same way the paper is a different hue?" That approach doesn't seem to explain the difference to everyone.

What I am hoping to do is to create an icc profile for our proofer that simulates more accurately how our product will look on the paper we run. Not going to use it for every proof, but just as a training/reference tool. I have a vague idea how to do this, but was looking for some info on how I could build an icc profile when all I really want to do is shift the paper white. Help???

p.s. Mickey Mouse solutions would be perfect - I thrive on these

Proofing problems are a proplem of economics, today we buy 500 4/4 business cards for $13 and constantly have severe downward pressures on pricing. In the real print world you're going to get 1 proofing solution and live with what it does.

 

[rich apollo]

My biggest issues with proofs are less related to substrate and more related to coatings. I have yet to find a financially reasonable way to proof cartons with both spot UV gloss coatings and UV matte varnishes which has become a very popular combo.

The best I can suggest is that you can purchase and retrofit a 1 or two color press to apply UV coatings pretty inexpensively. Yes, you're still heading out onto the press floor, but just to coat.

If you didn't need to spot coat I'd suggest a simple stand-alone UV coater. Or here's a link to a company marketing some varnishes specific for inkjet prints: http://www.breathingcolor.com/action/bc_shop/165/

 

[chevalier]

The best I can suggest is that you can purchase and retrofit a 1 or two color press to apply UV coatings pretty inexpensively. Yes, you're still heading out onto the press floor, but just to coat.

I went prospecting down that road but it wasn't economically sound compared onsite press approval even if we had to adjust and re-plate. I think (hope) the inkjet technology is going to catch-up in time.

 

[David Milisock]

The best I can suggest is that you can purchase and retrofit a 1 or two color press to apply UV coatings pretty inexpensively. Yes, you're still heading out onto the press floor, but just to coat.

If you didn't need to spot coat I'd suggest a simple stand-alone UV coater. Or here's a link to a company marketing some varnishes specific for inkjet prints: http://www.breathingcolor.com/action/bc_shop/165/

>The best I can suggest is that you can purchase and retrofit a 1 or two color press to apply UV coatings pretty inexpensively. Yes, you're still heading out onto the press floor, but just to coat.
Do you think that's a viable solution for a market that netting 2%?

 

[rich apollo]

>The best I can suggest is that you can purchase and retrofit a 1 or two color press to apply UV coatings pretty inexpensively. Yes, you're still heading out onto the press floor, but just to coat.
Do you think that's a viable solution for a market that netting 2%?

Currently, the only way to view coated proofs is to coat them. I'm talking about, at worst, hanging a single plate, versus plating the whole job - which is what the original poster is doing.

The last 2-color press I sold went for a song. Okay, for a song and a dance and we made the guy show us some leg.

 

[David Milisock]

Currently, the only way to view coated proofs is to coat them. I'm talking about, at worst, hanging a single plate, versus plating the whole job - which is what the original poster is doing.

The last 2-color press I sold went for a song. Okay, for a song and a dance and we made the guy show us some leg.

>The last 2-color press I sold went for a song. Okay, for a song and a dance and we made the guy show us some leg.[/
I heard that! The real issue si the run size, if it's big enough to pay for the proof cost.