Crop Mark Offset

[Jason]

Someone tell me why the default Offset for Crop Marks when exporting a PDF from Adobe products is .0833??

If the "industry standard" for bleed is .125", why can't the software have .125" as the default??

I know, I know, use a Pitstop action to fix the marks. My case is it shouldn't be that way to begin with.

If there is a reason, I'd LOVE to hear it.

 

[Ritter]

I wondered the same thing for a long long time. <joke> Maybe it is a conspiracy between preflight operators, enfocus and adobe.</joke>

 

[kyle]

Ideally, the software shouldn't allow the offset to be set less than the bleed, let alone doing it by default. Also, when adding crop marks, there should be a warning message that says "Are you really stripping film?," and it should make you set your computer's clock back to 1987.

 

[DCurry]

Ideally, the software shouldn't allow the offset to be set less than the bleed, let alone doing it by default. Also, when adding crop marks, there should be a warning message that says "Are you really stripping film?," and it should make you set your computer's clock back to 1987.

For register marks I could see that, but crop marks are helpful.

 

[kyle]

For register marks I could see that, but crop marks are helpful.

You're right - I've been using a RIP system for so long that I forgot about outputting camera-ready artwork or straight to a platesetter. Maybe the software could ask you if you're making a PDF file to send to a printer or publisher, and if you say yes, then it makes you set your clock back.

 

[claude72]

Someone tell me why the default Offset for Crop Marks when exporting a PDF from Adobe products is .0833??

If the "industry standard" for bleed is .125", why can't the software have .125" as the default??

Because 0.125 is not the standard... in fact, there is no standard : each job has it's own bleed/offset necessities... 0.125 is too big for some jobs, good for some others and too small for some others... But in the software's printing windows, there must be a default value, and why not 0.0833: that's a good value for some jobs!!!

Before the use of PDF, when imaging the films the printers set themself their offset and bleeds at the right value for each job... now we are obliged to cope with the offset set by the PDF makers, who are not always fully aware of the use of bleed and offset, and often use the default setting...
(as they use the default setting for all the other settings they are unaware with!!!)

 

[DCurry]

You're right - I've been using a RIP system for so long that I forgot about outputting camera-ready artwork or straight to a platesetter. Maybe the software could ask you if you're making a PDF file to send to a printer or publisher, and if you say yes, then it makes you set your clock back.

There are other reasons crop marks can be handy - for instance, a customer supplies a PDF that otherwise might have unknown specs. Looking at it, I can't tell if it is supposed to bleed or not -- the crops let me know that the customer expects to trim there. Also, helpful when placing PDFs into other documents (like ads into a magazine) to ensure proper placement. A third reason would be when outputting loose page proofs from Prinergy it shows the client where the page trims - especially helpful if the page doesn't bleed so everyone can see the edge of the page.

I don't really understand why you wouldn't want cropmarks - as long as they are outside of the bleed area, all they do is help to communicate expectations between printer and customer, something that is often sorely lacking.

I do agree that the default offset should always be greater than or equal to the bleed setting.

 

[kyle]

When we get a PDF file, I usually go through it page by page examining black generation, bleeds, overprinting, etc. In order to accurately judge the bleeds, the cropped area of the PDF should be exactly the same as the trimmed size plus bleeds. I'll normally crop off any unnecessary spine bleed for saddle-stitched jobs also, so I can easily detect opposing page elements intended to stop at the spine that go over the spine. When the PDF includes marks, say for an 8.5 x 11 document, the media and crop boxes are usually something like 9.333... by 11.8333..... In order to get the crop box exactly 8.75 x 11.25, I first enlarge the document to 9.5 x 12, then set the crop box to inset .375 inch on all four sides. The enlargement always goofs up the trim box, so I have to then reset it to .5 inch on all four sides. Then I usually have some of the crop marks or color bars invading the bleed area, and I have to remove those. After all of these steps, I have the same document I would have had if the marks were not included.

Crop marks can also yield false positives if someone is running an automated preflight check for "registration" color. I don't usually do that, though, since I'm looking at each page anyway.

When it comes to inferring the intended size from a PDF, I just check the trim box. The trim box is always the same area that any automatically generated crop marks would indicate (unless the PDF was created from Postscript). For a publisher placing PDF's from advertisers, I would expect that a PDF without marks exactly at the ad's size for a no-bleed ad, or exactly at the ad's size plus bleed for a bleeding ad would be fairly clear, and then the ad could be placed neatly and exactly in position by virtue of having a properly sized frame without the person doing the layout having to eyeball the position based on crop marks in an often low-res preview in the layout software.

 

[rich apollo]

In my opinion kyle had a really great idea - the offset for crops and bullets could default to the bleed value.

Stellar! Bully!

 

[Jason]

In my opinion kyle had a really great idea - the offset for crops and bullets could default to the bleed value.

Stellar! Bully!

So....what's the odds in Adobe actually doing this?????????

 

[michaelejahn]

offset is not bleed amount

offset is not bleed amount

Someone tell me why the default Offset for Crop Marks when exporting a PDF from Adobe products is .0833??

If the "industry standard" for bleed is .125", why can't the software have .125" as the default??

I know, I know, use a Pitstop action to fix the marks. My case is it shouldn't be that way to begin with.

If there is a reason, I'd LOVE to hear it.

.083 = 1/12 of an inch - but more importantly, this is 0p6 (1/2 a pica) - which is the default setting in most of the Adobe "Export to PDF" settings (like in InDesign) for "offset" of the marks. This is not the bleed amount ! The 'offset' is the space between the edge of the mark closest to the area of the box it is 'marking" - so, this .083 would be that small little space between the area you might cut and the closest edge of that mark. This is quite different than bleed area amount.

.125 = 1/8 of an inch - while I will agree with the other people posting that there is no industry standard, since no bleed amount is suggested in Adobe applications like InDesign ( when you select New Document) and no bleed amount is suggested when exporting to PDF ( in the marks and bleeds panel of the Export to PDF dialog box) - it is up to you to enter what you want (and I can't imagine that EVER being .083 !!)

Hope this helps !

 

[claude72]

This is not the bleed amount ! The 'offset' is the space between the edge of the mark closest to the area of the box it is 'marking" - so, this .083 would be that small little space between the area you might cut and the closest edge of that mark. This is quite different than bleed area amount.

Yes, but both (offset AND bleed) are to be linked together because they have the same use: both are made to leave a small little space out of the trim box to allow some small variations in the cutting position...

• the bleed allows to avoid a white strip left along an edge,
• and the offset allows to avoid small black dots or lines (remaining from cutted trim marks) left in the corners and the center of the edge...

... so, idealy, both have to be set to the same value, to allow the same variation: if you expect a 3 mm variation in trimming,
• you need a 3 mm bleed,
• and your trim marks must also have a 3 mm offset,
... and both leave you the 3 mm of possible variation!!!


When needing 3 mm of possible variation, if you set the offset at only 2 mm, when cutting at 2.9 mm of the trim box, you will be right in the bleed area (so you will have no white line on the edge), but you are out of the offset and you will have a little 0.9 mm black lines, remaining from the cutted trim marks, on each corner and in the middle of the edge.

 

[michaelejahn]

A case for doc template & custom PDF export settings

A case for doc template & custom PDF export settings

Yes, but both (offset AND bleed) are to be linked together because they have the same use: both are made to leave a small little space out of the trim box to allow some small variations in the cutting position...

Right.

While I will not comment on why anyone might require 3 mm for trim, as in any production requirement, one should communicate to all involved what the offset and bleed amounts need to be. If you look at that example PDF I took the time to make, the trim marks offsets and the bleed mark offsets are different.

I created the bleed objects within InDesign, then set up the PDF export settings to "use Document Bleed settings". This is how I work, but there are good reasons to do this several other ways.

I was not suggesting Adobes defaults are "okay" - I was simply pointing out that these terms are not interchangeable, which one might have gathered from the original post. I also will not go into things like round off errors, or if the use of the word pica is "really" a pica, or actually a "PostScript" pica - 1 PostScript pica = 4.23333333 millimeters and if a settings of 72 points per inch is accurate, or if when you enter more than 3 decimal points if it matters really, as it is always rounded to the nearest point, and this means there really are not much accuracy in decimal mm or decimal point (or more then 3 decimals in inches)

So, set up your new documents properly, or open pre-set teamplates and define, save and load custom PDF export settings - and never use Adobe defaults when specifying bleed - but before you call Adobe to complain, remember that in the last 10 seconds most of the InDesign documents exported had no bleed, so really, the defaults are fine for the majority of work.

I mean, really - this is common sence, yeas? Be prepared to do the job at hand - like remember to wear something other than flip flops when carrying a refrigerator down stairs. Things like that.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jimmy]

Here's what I do to get a consistent .5" margin from the crops to the edge of PDF plus it pushes the trims out of the bleed.

For instance an 8.5x11 page will be centered in a 9.5x12 PDF.

When you print or export from INDD make your offset .29165" and the bleed .125".

I print with the crops marks, bleed marks, reg marks and page info.

Be forewarned that it you print a very small trim size like a standard business card with the page info on, the trims won't be centered in the PDF. I simply turn off the page info for these type of projects.

 

[michaelejahn]

consistency wins the day !

consistency wins the day !

Here's what I do to get a consistent .5" margin from the crops to the edge of PDF plus it pushes the trims out of the bleed.

For instance an 8.5x11 page will be centered in a 9.5x12 PDF.

When you print or export from INDD make your offset .29165" and the bleed .125".

I print with the crops marks, bleed marks, reg marks and page info.

Be forewarned that it you print a very small trim size like a standard business card with the page info on, the trims won't be centered in the PDF. I simply turn off the page info for these type of projects.

Sage advice ! - if I could, I would promote you to Senior member (I think I am senior because I have been in prepress since the earth was cooling.

 

[pcmodem]

If your page is smaller than 335 pt / 4.6528 in. You will have the Page Information Shift and cause your page not to be centered if you are centering.

 

[Jason]

I mean, really - this is common sence, yeas?

Unlike you, I have little control over the hundreds of PDF's that I receive.

Where I work, the bindery department wants .125" bleed. Tomorrow I'll tell them Mike from a message board says that's WAY too much.

I will not comment on why anyone might require 3 mm for trim, as in any production requirement

75% of the PDF's I receive have the Bleed Margin set to .125" and the Crop Mark Offset at the default which is .0833.

I "technically" only have .0833" bleed in these PDF's. The image may go beyond the trim .125", but there is a crop mark in it. In Bindery if the trimming is off more than .0833" in any direction there will be crop mark showing.

Bleed Margin and Crop Mark Offset are LINKED. Regardless of the amount of bleed you want, these at the very least should be the same amount.

I could set my bleed margin for 2 inches, but if the offset is .0625", you only have .0625" bleed until the crop mark shows.

The many folks on this board and myself have no problems with bleeds and offsets. The problem is with the novice designers that send me hundreds of PDF's.

Apparently you live in a bubble where your files don't have bleed:

remember that in the last 10 seconds most of the InDesign documents exported had no bleed

Or you have contact with every person that sends you a PDF:

one should communicate to all involved what the offset and bleed amounts need to be

All we are talking about here is a crop mark in the bleed area, that's all, very simple. Not this:

I was not suggesting Adobes defaults are "okay" - I was simply pointing out that these terms are not interchangeable, which one might have gathered from the original post.

It would be nice if the software gave a warning about the crop mark being inside the bleed area, that's all.

 

[WendyM]

Sorry if someone has already said it..
When creating the pdf, export or distill, go the the Marks & Bleeds tab and change 'Offset' to what you want it to be. We work in mm so have set it to 5mm.
Save it as your preset and you won't have to worry about it again.
I even had to go so far as to doing a screen shot and just emailing it to customers showing what I wanted the offset to be.
The problem has all but disappeared.
You're right though - the default isn't enough

 

[rich apollo]

Be forewarned that it you print a very small trim size like a standard business card with the page info on, the trims won't be centered in the PDF. I simply turn off the page info for these type of projects.

Somebody has to go in and center that final piece. If you're sending files to a printer, they don't need the page info or the crop marks, or the bullets, or the colorbars, or the bleed marks. Just a file with bleeds. All that other stuff is left over from the days of film. Occasionally crop marks are helpful, as long as they're outside the bleed area. If they are not outside the bleed area, they're an impediment.

 

[Widmark]

I have a more general question that I've been meaning to bring up and this thread has reminded me. I'm neither a prepress expert or a novice designer, I worked at service bureaus in the days of film and have mostly done production on the client side for many years, so I'm unfamiliar with the art/trim/crop "boxes". Everything we release uses crop marks, even when releasing a hi-res PDF, we enlarge the document size to fit bleed and crops.

Now if crops aren't important and you can just center, do you mean that's something that takes place in printer's imposition software? As a test I just created a n 8.5 x 11 PDF that was all white with text in the lower right hand corner. When placed into InDesign, InDesign doesn't see it as a letter sized artwork, but only sees the text, similar to what would happen when creating art in illustrator, it just sees the artwork and centers that.

If not using crop marks, what would the proper way to release a PDF X1-a with bleed be? If the InDesign layout has bleed and you output the PDF with the X-1a preset, the resulting PDF is cut to the trim. Does the PDF retain the bleed?