Cutter not achieveing position

[Derak]

How do I adjust the brake on a Polar 92 cutter. The backgauge has started missing it's postion. I've had the machine re align itself (Scan reference point) but when running a program , it will get interupted because the position is not being reached. Usually I can acchieve the position quickly by typing it in again but sometimes it misses a second time. It is my assumption that this is a brake issue. Thoughts, advice, ideas?

 

[Risu]

Under the table locate grey wire which goes to the saddle. When saddle moves back and forth many times the wire will break. Breaking point is probably near of the wire´s connector.

 

[Buntpapier]

Hi Derak!

The first step has to be the specification which machine you have.
A Polar 92 machine witch has an error massage for wrong backgauge positioning is maybe a:
E
ECO
ED
EM
EMCII
EMC-Monitor
EM-Monitor
ES
Monitor
X
XS
XT
And a lot more …

If you don’t know the machine type you can tell the machine number as well.

Best regards
Buntpapier

 

[Derak]

Hi, and thanks for the feedback. It is a Polar 92 EMC Monitor. There is no error message being displayed. The program is halted and there's a beeping to alert me to the error in position. I am just into work now and will look into Risu's suggestion.

 

[Risu]

If the wire is broken, machine lose position most of the time in the same position. When it loses positions, then try to move the cable to other position as a first aid.

 

[Derak]

Doesn't seem to be the wire.
I inspected the connections and the wire itself for wear.
I was running without an issue for a couple hours but now the same problem has resurfaced.
I don' believe it is a brake issue either as sometimes it goes well past it's intended position. And at a slower pace than normal.

 

[Derak]

I see in an older post regarding a reference point issue on a polar 92, that the problem was solved by adjusting the position of the switch that registers the furthest position of back gauge. Could this be related to whats happening here. There is no error code, or message. The machine simply misses it's position, sometimes by a very long way. 20 inches even. It also won't move forward at times more than a fraction of an inch. I do wonder if the worm gear is wearing out, perhaps catching on a worn edge, or even shavings.......but that doesn't add up to me, why would it carry on past it's target position?

 

[Risu]

There is a few relays on the electric board, on the front right side. Open relays plastic cover and clean the relays contacts. I did it once when I had positions problems and problem solved.

 

[Buntpapier]

Hi Derak!

If there is no error message and the backgauge is far off I would get some help from specialists. If the computer does not detect an error and does not give you any error message, it looks like the measuring system is not working correct. If the relays are broken, the computer understands the problem and gives you an error.
I am assuming if you get the backgauge all the way to the front, or the back sometimes everything goes back to normal. If yes, the computer reads the reference point and corrects the actual measurement. This would mean the trailer cable is broken or the linear scale is gone.

It looks like you are from the US. In this case I would call binderytech in Avon OH and ask from the next available service tech. Help via internet is not possible in this case.

Best regards and good luck
Buntpapier

 

[Derak]

Good advise. Unfortunately we're a long way from Ohio. Northern Canada. 1600km to the nearest city so whenever we can we need to sort things out on our own. In fact, part of the problem may be that the monitor is not original and may not be displaying the error code. The field of view is cut off and some info may not be visible. I think the next step may have to be another monitor swap......
The back gauge now is stalling at the rear position when I try to scan reference point. I'm operating on the back up machine now.

 

[petermif]

Hi guys,
We have a problem with our Polar 92 EM-MONITOR (Nr:6011858). Machine was bought almost new in the UK and has FMM.
27 Nov 18: machine working all day perfectly. At 5pm machine froze and wouldn't do anything. Power off and on again and we got a screen full of + signs and cursor flashing at top left corner and won't boot any further.
28 Nov: Called POLAR service in Malta but being christmas period techs were too busy and we were put on a wait list
29 Nov: Being a small press we couldn't wait and started taking all our cutting to an nearby press who kindly let us use their machine between 6am - 7am before they started work.....very nice of them but it was killing us.
3 Dec: Polar tech turns up just to have a look and frankly hasn't got a clue....Power supplies OK and all seems good so he emails Polar in Germany and they say CP1 board needs to be replaced.
Cost of CP1 is 4680 euros and if you return damaged board you MAY get some credit back if board is repairable!!. We order CP1 board and it arrives 3 days later.
7 Dec: Polar deliver CP1 board and tech calls me up to say I can install it myself (I'm an electrical engineer, worked with Philips Medical Systems 3 years & Kodak for 12 years)
I install CP1 board and machine seems to work Hallelujah!!! BUT machine works only manually...all automatic cutting does not function, machine won't step through program but stops at first step or sometimes 2nd step. Cancelling auto cutting returns machine to manual cut and machine is ok....you can punch in size and machine moves to correct size and if you press cut buttons blade comes down and cycles correctly. After a few cuts machine keyboard and backgauge sometimes freezes, wont accept input from keyboard and seems to be waiting for something but pressing cut buttons always works; after a few blank cuts the machine accepts input from keyboard and all seems ok. Call POLAR tech again...still to busy.....Christmas work
10 Dec: I dive in under machine and notice that switch S390 (operated by foot pedal) is damaged; actual switch ok but mounting to machine frame is broken and doesn't always make positive action. Replaced switch (took 3 days to arrive from Germany)....no change to machine!!! Call Polar again!!! Polar techs call back and say sorry..we don't have much experience on this machine and feel we cannot be effective....(translation) ...you're on you own!!! Christmas is approaching and so is our shutdown and we're down to manual cutting only at least. Polar Germany (through their reps here by email) start asking us to check power supplies, clamp proximity sensor, safety bolt sensors, cut switches at table etc.....the list goes on.

We now start an email saga through their representatives in here in Malta. They suggest that the problem must be the SK circuit board and suggest we replace this board....cost is 2860 euros!! We eventually order this board and it arrives in January (we have shutdown for christmas holidays). We replace the SK board and NOTHING CHANGES!!!! We notice that when we try auto cutting the machine random will sometimes steps through the program and very rarely even complete it, or stop at the first step. We also notice that in auto cutting, when the knife has completed a cycle and won't advance to the next step the monitor displays "AUTOMATIC KNIFE ACTIVE" even though the knife is actually home. We suspect the switches at the cams on the back and check them and discover that one pair of contacts on S22c has a high resistance, S22a & S22b are fine and the replacement cost of these 2 switches, a mysterious box and the wiring cost 1021 euros....too expensive for a trial and error basis replacement.
More emails to & from Polar and they are now saying "we reach the end of email support. 2 options remain. Send all the electronics (the whole electrical works) + keyboard and computer and power relays / contactors to POLAR in Germany and they will test it OR have all parts shipped to Malta and they'll send a Polar tech here.....cost unknown but I can imagine!!!!

SO this is my situation at the moment:
The guillotine works in manual mode but will sometimes refuse input from the keyboard (a few blank cuts solves this)
The machine moves perfectly to any size (i reason that the LMS and the PI board and the MCM units are fine)
The guillotine stores and recalls programs OK, will step through a program (backgauge only) and move correctly but sometimes stops!
The machine wants to SCAN REFERENCE POINT very FREQUENTLY (5 or 5 time a day in the morning and it gets better in the afternoon!!!)
When we switch on the air on the table the monitor blanks momentarily but comes back ok and only the first time!! (implies a power supply issue I think)
When we had the MCM unit out we noticed that of the 6 snubbers (RC networks) that should be in circuit only 2 are physically there (but its been like this for years!)
Power supplies seem ok (using a Fluke multimeter) I haven't put a scope on them yet.....getting there!!

We're now in February, very busy and this is getting very frustrating and expensive.

I would appreciate any help / suggestions.

Thank you,
Peter ([email protected] Mobile: +356 99475840)

 

[AP90]

Hi guys,
We have a problem with our Polar 92 EM-MONITOR (Nr:6011858). Machine was bought almost new in the UK and has FMM.
27 Nov 18: machine working all day perfectly. At 5pm machine froze and wouldn't do anything. Power off and on again and we got a screen full of + signs and cursor flashing at top left corner and won't boot any further.
28 Nov: Called POLAR service in Malta but being christmas period techs were too busy and we were put on a wait list
29 Nov: Being a small press we couldn't wait and started taking all our cutting to an nearby press who kindly let us use their machine between 6am - 7am before they started work.....very nice of them but it was killing us.
3 Dec: Polar tech turns up just to have a look and frankly hasn't got a clue....Power supplies OK and all seems good so he emails Polar in Germany and they say CP1 board needs to be replaced.
Cost of CP1 is 4680 euros and if you return damaged board you MAY get some credit back if board is repairable!!. We order CP1 board and it arrives 3 days later.
7 Dec: Polar deliver CP1 board and tech calls me up to say I can install it myself (I'm an electrical engineer, worked with Philips Medical Systems 3 years & Kodak for 12 years)
I install CP1 board and machine seems to work Hallelujah!!! BUT machine works only manually...all automatic cutting does not function, machine won't step through program but stops at first step or sometimes 2nd step. Cancelling auto cutting returns machine to manual cut and machine is ok....you can punch in size and machine moves to correct size and if you press cut buttons blade comes down and cycles correctly. After a few cuts machine keyboard and backgauge sometimes freezes, wont accept input from keyboard and seems to be waiting for something but pressing cut buttons always works; after a few blank cuts the machine accepts input from keyboard and all seems ok. Call POLAR tech again...still to busy.....Christmas work
10 Dec: I dive in under machine and notice that switch S390 (operated by foot pedal) is damaged; actual switch ok but mounting to machine frame is broken and doesn't always make positive action. Replaced switch (took 3 days to arrive from Germany)....no change to machine!!! Call Polar again!!! Polar techs call back and say sorry..we don't have much experience on this machine and feel we cannot be effective....(translation) ...you're on you own!!! Christmas is approaching and so is our shutdown and we're down to manual cutting only at least. Polar Germany (through their reps here by email) start asking us to check power supplies, clamp proximity sensor, safety bolt sensors, cut switches at table etc.....the list goes on.

We now start an email saga through their representatives in here in Malta. They suggest that the problem must be the SK circuit board and suggest we replace this board....cost is 2860 euros!! We eventually order this board and it arrives in January (we have shutdown for christmas holidays). We replace the SK board and NOTHING CHANGES!!!! We notice that when we try auto cutting the machine random will sometimes steps through the program and very rarely even complete it, or stop at the first step. We also notice that in auto cutting, when the knife has completed a cycle and won't advance to the next step the monitor displays "AUTOMATIC KNIFE ACTIVE" even though the knife is actually home. We suspect the switches at the cams on the back and check them and discover that one pair of contacts on S22c has a high resistance, S22a & S22b are fine and the replacement cost of these 2 switches, a mysterious box and the wiring cost 1021 euros....too expensive for a trial and error basis replacement.
More emails to & from Polar and they are now saying "we reach the end of email support. 2 options remain. Send all the electronics (the whole electrical works) + keyboard and computer and power relays / contactors to POLAR in Germany and they will test it OR have all parts shipped to Malta and they'll send a Polar tech here.....cost unknown but I can imagine!!!!

SO this is my situation at the moment:
The guillotine works in manual mode but will sometimes refuse input from the keyboard (a few blank cuts solves this)
The machine moves perfectly to any size (i reason that the LMS and the PI board and the MCM units are fine)
The guillotine stores and recalls programs OK, will step through a program (backgauge only) and move correctly but sometimes stops!
The machine wants to SCAN REFERENCE POINT very FREQUENTLY (5 or 5 time a day in the morning and it gets better in the afternoon!!!)
When we switch on the air on the table the monitor blanks momentarily but comes back ok and only the first time!! (implies a power supply issue I think)
When we had the MCM unit out we noticed that of the 6 snubbers (RC networks) that should be in circuit only 2 are physically there (but its been like this for years!)
Power supplies seem ok (using a Fluke multimeter) I haven't put a scope on them yet.....getting there!!

We're now in February, very busy and this is getting very frustrating and expensive.

I would appreciate any help / suggestions.

Thank you,
Peter ([email protected] Mobile: +356 99475840)

Id probably just be looking for a nice used cutter at this point. I know your already like 10k into fixing this, but seems like Polar won't help any and what happens when another problem arises in a year or 2 and you have to go through this again. Idk, just my 2 cents.

 

[petermif]

Hi AP90,

Im starting to think that way but I can t help feeling that we've spent a lot of money and we're just missing something stupid somewhere. Im hoping somebody whit POLAR experience can point me in the right direction. Too many systems work well for there to be some serious issue left. It moves, it cuts and the display reads correctly....not much left so im guessing its something intermittent of some hidden system (like the mysterious box hidden away within the wiring loom that goes from the switches at the knige cycle cams to the main board!

Thanks,
Peter

 

[chock]

Dear Peter:
Hope you are well.
I was reading your problem , now is frustating.
You indicated that you measure the power supply. However when the people measure this, do not know that tolerance in power supply is very Critica and Most of cause failure in electronic equipment(from my own experience and other engineer colleagues) in troubleshooting.
1) +5 Vdc Tolerance: 5.08-5.12 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
2) +12Vdc Tolerance:11.4-12.6 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
3) +24Vdc Tolerance:23.7+24.6 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
4) If there are o.k please follow to the Electronic Board Cpu or MicroP.
5) Reset the small switch S1, this switch reset the Cpu or MicroP, some LED will be light up, indicating that Computer or Cpu or MicroP is working.!
6)If this is o.k Please test the Lithium Battery for 3.5Vdc, this battery support all RAM Information data variable of the paper cutter( such as:brake afterrun, last program, or step number,cut counter, etc) of course the program entered by the operator.
Let me know any question, please.
Blessing
[email protected]
Mobile+WhatsApp:+505 8861 1441

 

[petermif]

Dear Peter:
Hope you are well.
I was reading your problem , now is frustating.
You indicated that you measure the power supply. However when the people measure this, do not know that tolerance in power supply is very Critica and Most of cause failure in electronic equipment(from my own experience and other engineer colleagues) in troubleshooting.
1) +5 Vdc Tolerance: 5.08-5.12 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
2) +12Vdc Tolerance:11.4-12.6 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
3) +24Vdc Tolerance:23.7+24.6 if this out of this parameter Replace or repair.
4) If there are o.k please follow to the Electronic Board Cpu or MicroP.
5) Reset the small switch S1, this switch reset the Cpu or MicroP, some LED will be light up, indicating that Computer or Cpu or MicroP is working.!
6)If this is o.k Please test the Lithium Battery for 3.5Vdc, this battery support all RAM Information data variable of the paper cutter( such as:brake afterrun, last program, or step number,cut counter, etc) of course the program entered by the operator.
Let me know any question, please.
Blessing
[email protected]
Mobile+WhatsApp:+505 8861 1441

Hi Ernesto,
Thank you very much for your feedback. I understand exactly what you mean by power supply voltages being critical.

Here are my readings
1) +5 Vdc Tolerance: 5.08-5.12 mine is 5.095v
2) +12Vdc Tolerance:11.4-12.6 mine is 11.950v
3) +24Vdc Tolerance:23.7+24.6 mine is 23.970v

I'm not sure what you mean by number 4. Do you want me to measure the supply on the microprocessor board? If so there is no easy access and since we have a brand new circuit board fitted it should be OK.

Also CP1 is a new circuit board (we replaced this in December) the battery should be fine too and on the new CP1 circuit board S1 the RESET button no longer exists and the LED is removed too!!
I know that if the battery is low then the memory wont work well but we get SCAN REFERENCE POINT errors very frequently and I suspect its not battery related but perhaps some other factor causing this.

Another point we noticed is that the first time S87 is activated (this is the switch under the air table to activate the solenoid Y94a ) the monitor screen blanks out momentarily but returns to normal after 1 second!!! The only way theses are possibly connected is through the power supply!!! Any ideas here.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[Print Service]

1. Auto cutting - perhaps the computer doesn't know your Clamp is back up. Check your Clamp top sensor if this is the case. It won't step until it knows Clamp is up.
2. Scan reference - there's a lot to look at. Does your backgauge always find position when you type a number either in front or back?
3. Try to disable first the air solenoid, if it cause your monitor to blank out. Monitor power is normally separate from air solenoid unless you wired your monitor to the same PS 24v power supply the machine is using.
4. SK is for cutting and nothing to do with your scan reference or back gauge problem. If it doesn't fix your problem, you should be able to return it to your local agent.
5. The mysterious box in the wire trays are your knife upstroke control.

Regards,
Print Servuce

 

[chock]

Please read your email
Thank you .
Blessing
[email protected]
Mobile+WhatsApp:+505 8861 1441

 

[petermif]

1. Auto cutting - perhaps the computer doesn't know your Clamp is back up. Check your Clamp top sensor if this is the case. It won't step until it knows Clamp is up.
2. Scan reference - there's a lot to look at. Does your backgauge always find position when you type a number either in front or back?
3. Try to disable first the air solenoid, if it cause your monitor to blank out. Monitor power is normally separate from air solenoid unless you wired your monitor to the same PS 24v power supply the machine is using.
4. SK is for cutting and nothing to do with your scan reference or back gauge problem. If it doesn't fix your problem, you should be able to return it to your local agent.
5. The mysterious box in the wire trays are your knife upstroke control.

Regards,
Print Servuce

Hi Print Service,

Thank you for the feedback......now some answers from me....

1. Auto cutting - perhaps the computer doesn't know your Clamp is back up. Check your Clamp top sensor if this is the case. It won't step until it knows Clamp is up. Checked the clamp proximity sensor and its OK and the machine steps
2. Scan reference - there's a lot to look at. Does your backgauge always find position when you type a number either in front or back? Yes it does. we've noticed that the machine moves perfectly backward and forward but if you make a very small movement by hitting the up or down arrows on the keyboard it very often goes to Scan Ref point.
3. Try to disable first the air solenoid, if it cause your monitor to blank out. Monitor power is normally separate from air solenoid unless you wired your monitor to the same PS 24v power supply the machine is using. We haven't modified any wiring ....its as Polar make it at the factory. The only difference is that machines from the UK come with an FMM box on the back and even this is made and fitted by Polar when ordering the machine.
4. SK is for cutting and nothing to do with your scan reference or back gauge problem. If it doesn't fix your problem, you should be able to return it to your local agent. The local agent claims that Polar will refund about 40% of the cost if you unseal and try a new board a s they have to test it entirely even if its OK
5. The mysterious box in the wire trays are your knife upstroke control. I worked that out and I think the 2 relays in the box are K22a and K22b but i'm not sure why they monitor upstroke and i've opened the little box and they look fine. I don't have a clear understanding of why in auto mode the machine says "Automatic Knife Active" even when the knife is back up. The question is, do the switches on the cams (S22a & b) and the relays in this box inform the SK board that the knife is home and then the SK board tells the PI board (through the CP board) to move through the next step. My logic tells me that to move both the knife and the clamp must be up. Then move to next step > clamp > cut and repeat for each step.

The mystery is that it sometime runs through a few steps of a program, sometimes only one step and very rarely will do nearly the whole program!!! HWy is there this variability? My experience as an engineer tells me something is intermittently going wrong!!

Thank you for any help.
Peter

 

[chock]

Please see your email.
Let me know any question.
Blessing
[email protected]
Mobile+WhatsApp:+505 88611441

 

[Print Service]

Measure the brake voltage while moving and monitor when the error scan reference point comes up. Ask someone to move the backgauge while you monitor the brake voltage. Most likely you won't get voltage at the brake when the back gauge didn't move.