Deciding between Xerox and Canon

[Kalan]

Hey all.

I currently have a Xerox Docucolor 250 and the lease is up soon. I've taken bids from both Xerox and Canon. Canon is recommending the imagePress C6000 (not the VP model). Xerox is showing me the X700XC. The Canon machine is about 15% cheaper, both on the lease and the per-click rate.

I'm the Philadelphia area which Canon assures me is a big hub for their service dept. My service from Xerox has been good for the last five years, but spotty on parts availability over the last few months.

Can anyone recommend or comment on Canon's service in the Philly area? We use our machine in a production environment, so reliability is a HUGE issue. If anyone can think of other issues related to the difference between the two machines, that'd be great too.

Thanks

 

[X33]

I'm the Philadelphia area which Canon assures me is a big hub for their service dept.

Every major city or metro area is a big hub for service for any organization (Philly, NYC, Boston, Atlanta, Miami, etc).

How did you like the Customer Replaceable Units on the DC250? Did you see any benefit from the fact that you didn't have to place service calls and wait for a tech to come and replace an important part in your machine? The X700 will have the same CRUs. Remember that these Xerox units, have a mono-component toner, meaning that there's no additional need for a service tech to come and put fresh developer in the unit. By the way, fresh developer means consistent color. Very important, to avoid any supply issues, make sure you have a couple of sets for your CRUs in-house; they are included in your maintenance contract anyway.

 

[JMSDP]

We have the Canon 6000VP. We are not in Philly, but a major metro area - Washington DC.

The 6000 is a fine machine when working properly.

The issue is service. There are three major issues: parts, service tech knowledge and service management.

1) Parts - We have two Xerox presses and the Canon 6000vp. Xerox is not perfect, but the techs carry many more parts than the Canon techs. The Canon techs usually need to get parts FedExd in the next day. We are typically down 24 hours + when they need a part.

2) Service Tech Knowledge - The DC team has one very experienced tech, one somewhat experienced tech and a bunch of techs who can barely find the fuser. As you can imagine, the two guys who have any knowledge are in great demand. When we see one of the lesser knowledgeable guys come through our door, we know that we are in trouble. We have been down for multiple days, multiple times.

3) Service Management - This is the biggest problem. In our area, these guys just don't get it. A printing company cannot be down for three to four days. Their mentality seems to be geared toward servicing office machines. I suspect that this is not just a regional problem. They are working the "Canon" way.

Before you take the plunge, make sure you understand what you are getting yourself into. Understand the CED, don't just breeze by it. Knowing what I know now, I think I would have made a different choice.

 

[Kalan]

Thanks for the input. I've been working on the deals and I think I'm going to go with Xerox. The only question I have left is whether to go with a DC 252 model or the newer X700 Color Press. Anyone have an opinion on the difference? The X700 is about 10% more expensive, but is supposedly faster and more reliable.

Thanks

 

[Keith]

I faced that decision about 7 months ago- 700 or 252. I went with the 252 because I don't have enough volume to justify the 700. The 252 is leaps and bounds ahead of want I was running (Canon IR 3220). The differences I saw between the machines were- speed, duplex coated, and a decurler. There are other differences but that is what mattered to me.

One thing I didn't anticipate with this machine is the fact that stocks that worked on my old machine didn't necessarily work on the new machine. That was fun.

And I agree with some of the posts concerning Canon's office mentality.

 

[jotterpinky]

In my opinion you should think twice about going with the cheaper clicks and cost of the Canon. We faced a similar decision recently. We ended up purchasing one of the new Canon C9065 printers and it has been nothing but a headache. The tech has been in nearly every day since we purchased it for image quality problems, registration, even different zoom percentages from sheet to sheet (unbelievable). Of course this is a brand new machine so it's a bit untested but this should be labeled a "beta test" piece of equipment.

Due to this problem we decided to purchase a Xerox 700 engine for another location (we previously demo'd the Xerox and found it to be a reasonable upgrade from our DC250).

Through all of this the thing I have learned is that Xerox has much more experience when it comes to supporting printers and the type of quality, registration, and stock handling we expect. When it comes down to getting the tech to admit the machine is out of spec it seems as though Canon is looking everywhere else for excuses but at their actual equipment. With Xerox you have an entire national team that collaborates...the local Canon guys seem to be left to their own devices when it comes to getting any national support from Canon corporate. This means that if you are having problems you're not limited to the local guys experience tinkering.

However this all being said price is a huge factor in being competitive. You really need to get to know who the local technicians are and if they are competent. Different areas have their strengths and weaknesses. You might get better service from the Canon team it seems to be very regional. I would try to get referrals from other printers in the area and see how they like each of the two vendors service. Then make your decision from that. 75% of your equipment and the quality it outputs is your service tech.

Good luck

 

[X33]

The only question I have left is whether to go with a DC 252 model or the newer X700 Color Press. Anyone have an opinion on the difference? The X700 is about 10% more expensive, but is supposedly faster and more reliable.

Thanks

some of the differences are :
1. Speed
2. Registration : DC252 3mm vs X700 1mm FTB
3. Active Paper Decurlers : X700 only
4. Custom Paper Profiles : X700 only
5. Duplex on coated/glossy media : X700 only
6. Max Duplex : DC252 65lb Cover, X700 80lb Cover
7. Upgradeability : X700 has many more options for feeding and finishing

 

[Wunder08]

Have you looked at a Oce 665 Pro?. (K&M 6501 same machine I believe)

We put one in two months ago, so far 200K clicks, 13x19, great machine for #80 lb cover.

We took a hard look at the Xerox 700, it came down to price, the Oce' was significantly less expensive.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I had a DC260 when it was nearly new. I loved the image quality, but god help you when it came time to cut... I was having 2.7mm on Text weight papers and 4+mm on Covers. (THATS PER SIDE, NOT FRONT TO BACK!).

I now have the X700 and love everything about it except the dealer I am working with. (If I'd done it through Xerox Direct I'd imagine I'd love everything about it!) I've had it since Dec 9, 2009 and as of today it has 500,000 clicks on it. All are 12x18 and most are above avg coverage. I've had a couple of issues, but when you pound 200,000 LTR prints in 17 days, what do you expect. Been down once for 3 days but most other things can be worked around (for the most part). The registration tends to walk about .8mm (80#/100# GLS TXT) but that is acceptable for our application. Cover weights tend to be a bit more work (but far less then the DC260 was).

Just my .02

 

[X33]

Have you looked at a Oce 665 Pro?. (K&M 6501 same machine I believe)

I think Canon just closed on the OCE deal; OCE is now a Canon company, and has terminated immediately the relationship with KM.

I'd think twice about the OCE 665.

p.s. : someone may want to google this just to double check.

 

[CSimpson]

I have several Oce machines including the 665. So, I have been paying close attention to the Cannon/Oce merger and the relationship with KM. The deal is not final because some shareholder are not happy with Cannon's offer, but convetional wisdom says it is going to happen sooner or later. Oce and KM disolved their joint development projects. In otherwords they are not sharing future technology developments; however, their dealer relationship is still intact and from what I can gather it will continue this way for a while. The deal has to finalized and talking to the local guys it will probably take a 6 to 12 months to reorganize so they think they are still going to have the ability to sell KM products through the rest of this year. Then they have commited to supporting those product at least 5 years. So, I think you are safe to buy or lease one. You could also just get the KM version too if you overly concerned.

I had a Xerox 250 before my Oce. The Oce was step up in registration and print quality and so far I am happy.

 

[X33]

I have several Oce machines including the 665. So, I have been paying close attention to the Cannon/Oce merger and the relationship with KM.

good homework! thanks for the summary

 

[mariocanta]

Hey all.

I currently have a Xerox Docucolor 250 and the lease is up soon. I've taken bids from both Xerox and Canon. Canon is recommending the imagePress C6000 (not the VP model). Xerox is showing me the X700XC. The Canon machine is about 15% cheaper, both on the lease and the per-click rate.

I'm the Philadelphia area which Canon assures me is a big hub for their service dept. My service from Xerox has been good for the last five years, but spotty on parts availability over the last few months.

Can anyone recommend or comment on Canon's service in the Philly area? We use our machine in a production environment, so reliability is a HUGE issue. If anyone can think of other issues related to the difference between the two machines, that'd be great too.

Thanks

I have the Canon C6000 (no VP), before I had the Xerox 250 (like you)
This printer, for quality it is the best, much better then Xerox.
The big, big, big problem is the affidability of the machine
In 2 years, the technician came almost 200 times.
If I print the day after I have to call the Canon men
I did almost 2.000.000 copy, but I can't plane a serious work, because in the morning when I start the machine I do not know if IT IS OK or I get the error number ##### ## ## ## and I have to call the technician.
Mario

 

[bompi]

I have the Canon C6000 (no VP), before I had the Xerox 250 (like you)
This printer, for quality it is the best, much better then Xerox.
The big, big, big problem is the affidability of the machine
In 2 years, the technician came almost 200 times.
If I print the day after I have to call the Canon men
I did almost 2.000.000 copy, but I can't plane a serious work, because in the morning when I start the machine I do not know if IT IS OK or I get the error number ##### ## ## ## and I have to call the technician.
Mario

Hello Mario,
Because I'm interested in buying the Canon 6000, I was wondering what problems you've encountered, 200 calls in two years are so many.
I certainly do not have your print volume, I testify about 15,000 copies monthly, but I can not get the thought of so many stoppages.
Plus I wanted to know what you have paid the Canon 6000 and which cost you a copy, as long as you can answer me.

 

[thomasc12]

CANON IP6000 vs. XX250 or XX700 is a funny discussion.

Look at the hardware - the straight paperpath and the paperdecks are showing the different! Its physic that you have to bend a sheet paper for duplex printing. Its logical that the switching from 1st to 2nd side of a sheet paper is more reliable on a lager paperpath way with larger radius for this paper way.

- The paperdecks are using a dual sheet detection - important by VDP printruns
- Mediadatabase with RIP connetion
- a huge online finishing solutions, f.e. bookbinder with 3side trimming,...
- no oil! (like the older iGens)
- run coated sheets as well as uncoated
- a lot of tools in the printer software to fit the image on the correct position of the sheet
- 2 Heating stations (unique) for less stressing the paper during fixing process

The idea of the IP6000 vs the IP6000VP or 7000VP was the demand of customers to get the "bigger - better" Hardware for the entry of production!

The DC250s 700s are based on developed office printingengins with a excellent print output! But not for production envirements. But, end of the day the price is limiting the skies ;-)

TC

 

[thomasc12]

Sorry for my english

- no oil (compared with the older iGens with oil - no Fuji Xerox hardware!)

TC