Digital printer to offset

[Yello]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking around for a while and finally decided to make a post.

We are a digital print and signage company but to our clients we offer the whole service package so when they start working with us we do everything they might need from this field and even a bit wider than that. For us this is a total no-brainer and has pretty much been our business plan from the get-go. These are usually bigger more established companies for which we handle their signage and printing needs but we also have half a dozen (this increases by 1 or 2 per year) of clients with whom we've been from the get go. We've created their brand name, the visual identity of their products, made signage for their buildings, printed their flags, wrapped their cars, printed their labels, business cards...you get the idea the whole thing.

The majority of this stuff we do in-house. The main reason we do that is because that way we don't depend on other people's definition of quality and deadlines. Say we are running late on delivering something that the customer absolutely needs by tonight. If we can do it in-house I'll gladly spend a few extra hours in myself or if I can't do it by myself ask one of the employees to stick around to finish this for a good client. Via outsourcing that would be impossible.

Offset is not something we initially looked into because I was well aware that a 4C B2 press alone easily costs $100k+ not to mention the rest of the pre and post-press tools one would need. It was only when we started getting frustrated with the quality and unreliability of the companies to which we outsourced our work that we started looking into it.

This year I've been doing a lot of research into it and I think that I have a pretty good idea on how we could get started but as I don't like walking around blind without a cane I thought I'd first ask people that have done it what they think.

Here is what I have so far.

After looking over all the work we send to offset there are only 2 jobs that wouldn't work on a B3 press and they are: a cardboard packaging box, which we don't even do anymore because we don't work with the client anymore and B2 posters. B2 posters can be an easy buck but we don't do them that often and when we do it's usually something like 200-500 so I won't cry about not being able to do these. Also if we have to do a smaller volume we can always print them on our wide formats. We do a lot of B1 posters on them anyway.

Another job that we do every month is 500k ticket prints. You can print 8 of these on B3 so that's 63.000 sheets of paper which have to go 4 times through the machine (on a 1C B3) so that's 250,000 prints. If we assume that the press can do 7500 s/h that's around 30 print hours (not counting setting up the plates, colors etc). So this kind of job probably isn't ideal for a machine like this, right ?

Doing in it in house would be pretty great as it's a regular job but it's also a pretty low margin job and takes a lot of time so maybe something to be avoided on a machine like this.

It's also not very typical. We usually do things like flyers, 4 of them on a B3 sheet for example, let's say 10k of them. So that's 2.500 sheets, 4 times through the machine for full color and 2 sides 20,000 prints. 3 hours of print time so with setup and all around 6-7 hours. That's pretty good in my opinion.

One of the things I've always just assumed to be true is that everyone who does full color prints does them on a 4C press. It just seemed logical because I assumed that you couldn't get proper registration on anything less or that the quality would somehow never be the same.

Well about a year ago we switched to a new litho supplier with whom we have a very good relationship mainly because they are extremely responsive, always deliver on time and have great quality. I was shocked to find out that they do all their prints on a 1C machine. Again I always just assumed, based on the quality we got, that it's a 4C machine so I didn't even give it much thought.

Right now my train of thought is getting a 1C or 2C B3 press and starting from there. My main concern with this is that none of us have done litho before and that we won't be able to get good results. The basis for this concern is that a lot of people from the litho industry have told me that you need a press master with 20 years of experience to get good color results on a 1C or 2C machine.

We do around $100k of offset per year and that increases every year. We outsource all of it and we can maybe shave off 1-2% off this for ourselves. Another thing around here is that offset margins are pretty high.

My main concerns so far are whether we'll be able to hit registration and get a good enough quality in general and how much waste we'll have. I've been hearing different things how long it takes to stabilize the machine to get a good print, I'm assuming that it depends on the condition of the press but if it's something like 200-300 sheets per color that's 800-1200 sheets of waste on a 2.500-3000 sheet job (for example). That's no joke.


Other than the press itself for starters we figure we'll need:
a 1m wide giolutine (so we can cut down B2 and B1 papers to B3)
a die cut press
a folder
a coater (offline probably)

After we're all setup and actually know what we're doing we also want to get a CTP ASAP. I've looked around a bit and I was offered a SDP-ECO 1630II from 2000 which is described as in "top condition" for $6k. I've done up a bit of reading up though and from what I can tell polyester plates aren't really ideal for a machine without autoplate...or have I heard wrong ?

That's about it so far. I'd love to hear what others who have taken the plunge from digital to offset thing and any sort of advice you have.

Thanks in advance everyone!

 

[Yello]

Something I forgot to mention.

The press we are looking at right now is the MAN Roland Practica. The single or 2 color version.

Any recommendations on presses are also appreciated.

 

[unoprint1]

For Aiea Copy Center, we got rid of our 1 color printing presses 2 years ago.

While you need to look at the number, 100K seems kinda low to justify the equipment, rent, and pressman.

One thing you may not have considered is that your workmans comp cost may skyrocket. Putting in press equipment in some cases require all employees to be covered as if they are running the press (yes even if they just answer the phone).

Our situation is that if an employee walk by the press to go to the bathroom, they need to be covered as a press person.

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

Crazy, outsource that one job in a heartbeat, offset is so much more then even just a press and being able to run it add in plate making that could be up to a 100k by itself for a good thermal solution, and the fact you would even entertain running a quarter mill impressions thru a pres 4 times tells me you do not have a lot of offset experience...

 

[Yello]

Crazy, outsource that one job in a heartbeat, offset is so much more then even just a press and being able to run it add in plate making that could be up to a 100k by itself for a good thermal solution, and the fact you would even entertain running a quarter mill impressions thru a pres 4 times tells me you do not have a lot of offset experience...

Which I explicitly stated in the OP...

Sorry for not possessing the genetic memory required to be a pressman, I was under the silly impression that one could actually learn this sort of thing.

Jeez, some people

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

That is not my point, you can train a one armed monkey to run a one color press, but you will not be able to make any money on that job, when the guy down the street can do it on a 6 color 40" press in 2 hours and is slitting wrists to get work in the door...

 

[jotterpinky]

You will have a hard time making any money if you plan on printing 4-color process on a single / two color press. I know a guy that now works for us. Back in the day he had his own shop with a two color press that he did all sorts of stationary on. He did a few jobs four color on it and while they weren't horrible they weren't great either. He said the hardest part is now knowing the end result until you've already laid down two colors. You can run to the numbers but sometimes it needs a bit of tweaking and he had a hard time getting good color, registration, problems with powder, etc. The few jobs he attempted he said ended up costing him money to print since he had to match another bid. The time, effort and waste put him in the red. While the printer you mentioned is printing his job on a one color press he probably has a lot of experience and knows the ins and outs...possibly a good resource.

I think you can do it but why would you if you cannot make some money doing it. If you can hire someone "old-school" with press background you might make it work but don't expect if to be easy or painless.

However if you're determined to try make sure the press you buy is up to the challenge. I would reco

 

[dlincourt]

Seems you've already gotten good advice steering you away from this opportunity. Just going to chime in with a couple additional points.

You blanch a little at the probable waste on an offset press. But remember you're going to have that same waste percentage with every additional pass through the press. You mention that local offset margins appear to be good. But you'll be competing against those who have already fully depreciated (e.g. paid off) their presses, so they can always afford to compress the margin more than you as a new press operator can do. Don't go into such an investment unless you've got a solid opportunity that promises a full ROI in 3 years--preferably 2 years. You're introducing a lot of new fixed costs--materials, maintenance, depreciation, staff overhead, etc. You need a really healthy payback opportunity--either one really good customer you can consider a "lock," or several decent customer opportunities you know are looking for this solution. If these aren't present, put your research into finding the right partner for the offset work (which you might in turn leverage into additional digital print work).

 

[Yello]

Thanks for taking the time to reply jotterpinky, much appreciated.

The more I think about it the more problems I see but here is the reasoning I originally used when I first came up with this plan.

Once again we're a digital print and signage company, so no experience running a press.

First I want to point out that I'm in Eastern Europe and one huge problem around here is insolvency which is why everything in B2B is expensive as hell, print especially (of all kinds).

Now the 100k we do in offset isn't a lot but we didn't want to spent a lot either which is why we only considered the 1 color press. If it came down to going for a 4 color press this wouldn't even be a consideration.

Also as I said in the OP, again the only reason why we started thinking about it is because we learned that it was possible to get good full color results on a one color press. Before my rationale was always offset = 4 color press + CTP = $100k+ not gonna happen.

An old school offset guy recommended the Roland Practica that's being sold by a press guy he knows and he told us that he does full colors on it all day long and that the registration is spot on. He also told us to send what we're planning to print on it, he'll make a couple of plates and the pressman running it can show us how it's done and we can see for ourselves if the prints are satisfactory.

So I was thinking since we already have a small guillotine that we use for our digital prints that would fit the B3 format as well we could get the press (which is like $7k) a folding machine and a die cut press and slowly start learning and hopefully be doing some basic 2 color work in a few weeks.

The reason we would like to add a CTP as soon as possible is because we have some work (like something came in JUST 2 hours ago that we sent to the print) that requires a moderately large volume (which is waay too big for digital) but every page is unique. This job is 2x booklets, 70 pages each. First pages are full color the rest are 2 colors. Volume 3000 total, sized A4. So on a B3 that's 140 pages * 2 colors / 2 A4s per B3 + 8 plates for the first pages thats 148 plates. On a B2 machine that would be 74 plates.

If one had a CTP this job would be totally viable on a 1 color B3 (IMO).

Most of our jobs are short runs, for example double sided A5 flyers, 4 of which would fit on a B3. 7k of those that's 14k impressions on a one color B3. If the press can run at 7500 s/h and it takes me an hour (which I'm told is generous) per color to set it up that's 8ish hours. If I can have a clean $700 off that after color and paper I'd be a happy camper and based on my calculations I can. (again this isn't the states, people here don't earn $50 per hour...)

So that's what I've been thinking, the reason I came here is to get input on whether getting good quality will be possible, what kind of machine I should be looking at etc, what kind of CTP.

 

[Yello]

Seems you've already gotten good advice steering you away from this opportunity. Just going to chime in with a couple additional points.

You blanch a little at the probable waste on an offset press. But remember you're going to have that same waste percentage with every additional pass through the press. You mention that local offset margins appear to be good. But you'll be competing against those who have already fully depreciated (e.g. paid off) their presses, so they can always afford to compress the margin more than you as a new press operator can do. Don't go into such an investment unless you've got a solid opportunity that promises a full ROI in 3 years--preferably 2 years. You're introducing a lot of new fixed costs--materials, maintenance, depreciation, staff overhead, etc. You need a really healthy payback opportunity--either one really good customer you can consider a "lock," or several decent customer opportunities you know are looking for this solution. If these aren't present, put your research into finding the right partner for the offset work (which you might in turn leverage into additional digital print work).

The more I think about it the more I am less sure about going in this direction as well BUT not for any of the math I did. It's more for lack of information I'm having.

The main problem I'm having now is figuring out whether I'll be able to get good results and how much waste I would have. If either of those are unsatisfactory then it's a no go.

As for paying the equipment off. There really isn't a whole lot to pay off, the press we looked at costs $7k. Other than that we need a die cut press, a folder and maybe a bigger guillotine so we can cut down B2 paper down to size. That would get us started. If we could get work done on that we could pay it off in 2 months.

Afterwards if all were to go well would would get a aqueous coater and a CTP as soon as possible. With the coater we could get even more of the work we outsource done ourselves. The CTP would speed up our turnaround time as well as we would get the plates in a few hours ready instead of waiting 1-3 days for them to be made and delivered.

We have the room, we do signage and digital print and while the print stuff can all be packed in single room we have a little over 10,000 square feet which we use for the sign manufacturing.