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Fogra New Testing Procedure

A brief history of how Fogra became involved with the testing will be posted in sections over the next few weeks.
The precursor to certification began in 1992 with chrome roller problems. Those who were involved please add to this.
 
There is a commonality to all of this. I would say we should look for the chrome roller supplier or plating house for the years 1991-1994.
The following European press manufacturese did not have the chrome roller problem.
Solna
Oris
Planeta
HCM Color Metal
Adast
Omsca
Nebiola
Harris
This narrows down the search.
 
There is a transcript of proceedings in a German court between several press manufacturers and a handful of European press chemical companies on the subject of responsibility for damage to chrome rollers. If one of our European friends could obtain a copy and translate it into English, I am sure it would make for some fascinating reading. One result of the lawsuit was the formation of a jointly owned ceramic coating business that produced rollers for these manufacturers for a while. I believe this company found itself in litigation as well for the same reasons.
 
There is a transcript of proceedings in a German court between several press manufacturers and a handful of European press chemical companies on the subject of responsibility for damage to chrome rollers. If one of our European friends could obtain a copy and translate it into English, I am sure it would make for some fascinating reading. One result of the lawsuit was the formation of a jointly owned ceramic coating business that produced rollers for these manufacturers for a while. I believe this company found itself in litigation as well for the same reasons.

I found this company Coatec. They started in business in 1989. Ceramic rollers. Read the pdfs in the following links.


COATEC.DE - ENGLISH: Downloads

Hydrocerâ„¢ Clean US
 
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Yes, Coatec was the company. I do not have any information about who might of made the chrome rollers (I know who did not make them). The problem with the chrome rollers in question (I consulted at the time with one of the defendants in the lawsuit) was they were chrome plated directly on steel without the usual copper and nickel layers underneath. This allowed electrolysis (the flow of the fountain solution over the roller forming a galvanic battery due to the electrolyte (conductive) nature of the acids, bases and salts used in fountain solution formulations) to corrode the steel right through the porous chrome layer. This would happen regardless of the chemistry used, as long as it conducted electricity. Due to the porosity of the ceramic coating, the early Coatec rollers suffered the same problems. The press manufacturers tried (unsuccessfully) to establish that the fountain solutions were too acidic or inadequately inhibited to protect the rollers, but the court ruled that rollers sold as part of a dampening system should be able to withstand ordinary and expected exposure to materials necessary to facilitate the process for which the press was intended. The Munich Technical Institute was involved providing testimony supporting the press manufacturers and this lead to what eventually became FOGRA, testing and 'qualifying' washes and fountain solutions.
 
Yes, Coatec was the company. I do not have any information about who might of made the chrome rollers (I know who did not make them). The problem with the chrome rollers in question (I consulted at the time with one of the defendants in the lawsuit) was they were chrome plated directly on steel without the usual copper and nickel layers underneath. This allowed electrolysis (the flow of the fountain solution over the roller forming a galvanic battery due to the electrolyte (conductive) nature of the acids, bases and salts used in fountain solution formulations) to corrode the steel right through the porous chrome layer. This would happen regardless of the chemistry used, as long as it conducted electricity. Due to the porosity of the ceramic coating, the early Coatec rollers suffered the same problems. The press manufacturers tried (unsuccessfully) to establish that the fountain solutions were too acidic or inadequately inhibited to protect the rollers, but the court ruled that rollers sold as part of a dampening system should be able to withstand ordinary and expected exposure to materials necessary to facilitate the process for which the press was intended. The Munich Technical Institute was involved providing testimony supporting the press manufacturers and this lead to what eventually became FOGRA, testing and 'qualifying' washes and fountain solutions.


We have reached a precipice in this discussion. Dan Roll has shown that the press manufactures lost there case in the German Courts even after all of the data they provided. The courts said make the presses to handle the expected exposure. This ruse of hiding behind Fogra and forcing supply manufactures to pay a fee to allow there consumables to be used has been going on since 1995. The warranty period of the presses is only 1 year after that period you can use whatever you desire. To top it off there are many instances where the Fogra requirements have been waved because of unavailability of Forga approved chemistry that does not meet the requirements of the packaging and pharmaceutical industries. It is documented in contracts.
Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this.
 
Due to the porosity of the ceramic coating, the early Coatec rollers suffered the same problems.

.

Did you mean "ceramic" coating? I thought the problem was mainly with chrome plated rollers but are you saying ceramic rollers also had problems?
 
Did you mean "ceramic" coating? I thought the problem was mainly with chrome plated rollers but are you saying ceramic rollers also had problems?

Yes, many ceramic rollers supplied as replacements for damaged chrome rollers experienced chunks of the ceramic coating breaking off due to galvanic corrosion of the steel surface under the coating. After a non-porous under-plating was adopted, this problem went away.
I have seen several peculiar problems related to electrolysis over the years, including one where the copper plating from the ink system drive rollers was re-plated onto the background of the plates being run causing them to turn sort of yellow and, of course, irreversibly attractive to ink.
 
Addition

Addition

Hello fellow Lithographers,

In addition to the reasons given by Mr. Dan Roll - - NO Brass or Copper Metal piping or Taps/Unions should be
used anywhere in the Fountain Solution Circulation System ( Inflow/Outflow)
only Stainless Steel or Plastic are OK

Regards, Alois
 
I would wager that you could send the same product under multiple names and different packaging from different OEMs to Forga and they would have different approvals or some not approved at all.
 
This is a little amusing.
2 in 1 Fountain solution has "FOGRA" approval. But it is only approved under the following criteria
"2 in 1 Fountain Solution high content of nitrate;. pH > 6.5 - 9.0"

I would like to know what doseage was needed to get it to a PH of 6.5 or greater. And how did the product perform when it was in such an alkaline range.
If it's run at it's recomended doseage you achieve a ph of 5.0 - 5.2.

Whats the use of Fogra giving approval to a product and setting a criteria that is so far outside its designed operating range?

On a side note:
Also I have done some testing on the doesage rates of this fountain solution and it's doseage is far greater then what they suggest.
TDS says 10% setting will give you 10% NPA & 2% fount.
The problem is the hydrometer designed for IPA reads NPA differently, and in fact if you set it to 10% you are doseing in 18% actual product.
Turn down the % so that you are doseing in at a real 10 - 12 % and it will not run..
 
This is a little amusing.
2 in 1 Fountain solution has "FOGRA" approval. But it is only approved under the following criteria
"2 in 1 Fountain Solution high content of nitrate;. pH > 6.5 - 9.0"

To quote from Fogra's test procedure;
"b) Limits for corrosive ions in the ready to use fountain solution
Halogenides esp. Chlorides and bromides < 25 mg/l
Sulfates < 50 mg/l
Nitrates < 20 mg/l
The concentration of these ions can be determined by ion chromatography."

Twenty milligrams per liter is a concentration of .020/1000, limiting a fountain concentrate used at five ounces per gallon (or four percent) to essentially zero nitrate content. In North America, many fountain solutions contained magnesium nitrate, and a high nitrate content was essential when running the very popular PDI plate with its un-grained, un-anodized aluminum background. Concentrations of over one hundred grams per liter were common and at five ounces per gallon you would be looking at a solution content of >4/1000 of nitrate, or over two hundred times the limits for nitrates set by Fogra. I do not recall seeing any of the presses involved suffering from corrosion.
 
To quote from Fogra's test procedure;
"b) Limits for corrosive ions in the ready to use fountain solution
Halogenides esp. Chlorides and bromides < 25 mg/l
Sulfates < 50 mg/l
Nitrates < 20 mg/l
The concentration of these ions can be determined by ion chromatography."

Twenty milligrams per liter is a concentration of .020/1000, limiting a fountain concentrate used at five ounces per gallon (or four percent) to essentially zero nitrate content. In North America, many fountain solutions contained magnesium nitrate, and a high nitrate content was essential when running the very popular PDI plate with its un-grained, un-anodized aluminum background. Concentrations of over one hundred grams per liter were common and at five ounces per gallon you would be looking at a solution content of >4/1000 of nitrate, or over two hundred times the limits for nitrates set by Fogra. I do not recall seeing any of the presses involved suffering from corrosion.


Dan is this the same test criteria from 1992-1995 which Fogra adopted or inherited when the chrome and ceramic rollers had the inferior plating procedures.
 
This was taken from

"Testing scheme for fountain concentrates used in commercial offset printing presses, short version 12/2004, page 1 of 5." from Fogra.

I am pretty sure no one at Fogra remembers the chrome roller troubles, that was back in the day of the Munich Technical Institute and Dr. Schmidt. Fogra has been primarily concerned with plate cylinder surface issues, corrosion to newspaper press side frames (this became a problem when spray or centrifugal dampeners were introduced), and preventing the damage caused when blanket washer seals fail, leaking solvent and water into the electronics (often conveniently located right under the seals).
 
This was taken from

"Testing scheme for fountain concentrates used in commercial offset printing presses, short version 12/2004, page 1 of 5." from Fogra.

I am pretty sure no one at Fogra remembers the chrome roller troubles, that was back in the day of the Munich Technical Institute and Dr. Schmidt. Fogra has been primarily concerned with plate cylinder surface issues, corrosion to newspaper press side frames (this became a problem when spray or centrifugal dampeners were introduced), and preventing the damage caused when blanket washer seals fail, leaking solvent and water into the electronics (often conveniently located right under the seals).

Pyrrolidone is extremely notorious for destroying seals. If they would check for pyrrolidone and get it out of the washes and fountain solutions the seals life would be much longer.
 
The problems with the seals and check valves some people associate with whatever you are referring to as "Pyrrolidone" can just as easily be blamed on the use of fluoroelastomer (FKM) seals in areas where they were clearly inappropriate. It is another case of 'if you are marketing a printing press to facilitate the lithographic process or a circulator to distribute fountain solution, there may be some responsibility to determine if your product is compatible with products certain to come in contact with them'. Sort of like selling a cocktail shaker that is incompatible with anything stronger than beer and then blaming the liqueur industry for the problem when they leak.......
 
The problems with the seals and check valves some people associate with whatever you are referring to as "Pyrrolidone" can just as easily be blamed on the use of fluoroelastomer (FKM) seals in areas where they were clearly inappropriate. It is another case of 'if you are marketing a printing press to facilitate the lithographic process or a circulator to distribute fountain solution, there may be some responsibility to determine if your product is compatible with products certain to come in contact with them'. Sort of like selling a cocktail shaker that is incompatible with anything stronger than beer and then blaming the liqueur industry for the problem when they leak.......

Dan

I was hoping that someone with many years of experience would respond like this.
Had the manufacturers made it right in the first place instead of hiding behind all of the testing procedures when they know what the problem is in the first place yet they refuse to correct it.
Finger pointing and not taking responsibility is rampart. The auto industry can't hide if it is wrong they attempt to fix it and make it right. Where as this industry the finger points it is the other guys fault and screws him out of time, man-hours and money.
When the vendors fight there is always at least one who will show their true ignorance and inability to analysis and fix the problem. Over the years there have been many such instances. The problem gets fixed yet the real truth behind the fix RARELY ever comes forth.
What ever happened to I made a mistake and pride swallowing.
 
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EThis quote from Dan Roll about the use of Petroleum distillates " if you reject one petroleum distillate on health grounds, you pretty much have to reject them all" is a very significant statement coming from a manufacturer of petroleum based washes. Maybe Fogra could follow in Dan's footsteps.





The following is the complete quote from http://printplanet.com/forums/ink-s...n/28189-chemical-useage-its-effects-workers/8

"Dan Roll
Senior Member
Join Date
Oct 2009
Posts
100

I would like to clarify that I am not attempting to justify or promote any petroleum distillate. What anyone uses to clean their press is up to them, and today's printer has a lot of information available to them to base a considered choice on. My overall point has been all petroleum distillates come from the same source and the data sheets posted by the forum participants draw little distinction between them. Based on some of the discussion, if you reject one petroleum distillate on health grounds, you pretty much have to reject them all. Unless people are willing to wash their blankets and rollers with mayonnaise (or some other emulsified oil product) I see little alternative to the use of some sort of solvent.
Alois Senefelder likes this.
Daniel T Roll
904-305-2517"
 
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Dan,

I was reading this article and could not pass up your statement.

"Unless people are willing to wash their blankets and rollers with mayonnaise (or some other emulsified oil product) I see little alternative to the use of some sort of solvent.
Alois Senefelder likes this."
Daniel T Roll


I have been using a wash from Amerikal for many years now that has no petroleum distillates and it works great. It also has no regulated toxins. There are alternatives out there without sacrificing the quality of the product.
 

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