Future of VIOLET CTP?

[ajr]

Cost should be your major factor, support will be a major issue as you are offering a bureau service you will never want down time. You will probably need 2 machines why not get one of each!

AjR

 

[Slammer]

Did the backline for the Platedriver (remember them Eskopodi?) the 5mw violet was crap however the 10mw did everything you asked even on the western digital´s.
Much cheaper too and lasting far longer than the Thermals.

 

[Armya Inc]

Did the backline for the Platedriver (remember them Eskopodi?) the 5mw violet was crap however the 10mw did everything you asked even on the western digital´s.
Much cheaper too and lasting far longer than the Thermals.

30 mw and 60 mw are much better Now for Violet CTPs. With such a Laser power we can image Silver Halide, Polymer and Process Less Pates. Not to mention for different Violet plates we have to use different processors and cleanup unites .

Hope this will help!

 

[marktonk]

nshadab,

Steve brought up a good point in that the plate has to be able to meet your needs so that should be one of your factors to help determine what CtP you would need. A couple general comments. There are basically three version of imaging technology, flatbed, internal drum and external drum. I will not comment on flatbed in that we do not sell that technology. For violet, the Prosetter is internal drum. With our optics and 10 micron spot size, we were able to go up to 300 line screen and 20 micron FM. On the Suprasetter, it is external drum. Most thermal was/is external drum to maximize the heat transfer. The closer the laser to the plate, the more efficient the system. This is also why I mentioned distance of the optical path, the shorter the path, the more efficient the thermal laser is. Many people commented on the long life of the violet laser. The laser is only on when imaging plates so when you are not imaging, you are not putting any wear and tear on the laser. With the Suprasetter laser, it too is only on when imaging a plate. Some lasers are on when the CtP is turned on and therefore the laser is degrading even though you are not imaging. A few other points to consider, does the ctp have internal punching capabilities? This will be more consistent then an offline punch and will reduce press make ready. You may also want to look at automation, what is the footprint, how many plates does it hold, does it automatically remove slipsheets? I would also take into consideration the environmental specification, what is the operating range. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Mark

 

[Armya Inc]

nshadab,

Steve brought up a good point in that the plate has to be able to meet your needs so that should be one of your factors to help determine what CtP you would need. A couple general comments. There are basically three version of imaging technology, flatbed, internal drum and external drum. I will not comment on flatbed in that we do not sell that technology. For violet, the Prosetter is internal drum. With our optics and 10 micron spot size, we were able to go up to 300 line screen and 20 micron FM. On the Suprasetter, it is external drum. Most thermal was/is external drum to maximize the heat transfer. The closer the laser to the plate, the more efficient the system. This is also why I mentioned distance of the optical path, the shorter the path, the more efficient the thermal laser is. Many people commented on the long life of the violet laser. The laser is only on when imaging plates so when you are not imaging, you are not putting any wear and tear on the laser. With the Suprasetter laser, it too is only on when imaging a plate. Some lasers are on when the CtP is turned on and therefore the laser is degrading even though you are not imaging. A few other points to consider, does the ctp have internal punching capabilities? This will be more consistent then an offline punch and will reduce press make ready. You may also want to look at automation, what is the footprint, how many plates does it hold, does it automatically remove slipsheets? I would also take into consideration the environmental specification, what is the operating range. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Mark

Mark is right, but I have some comments:
1- For Thermal Lasers there are up to 15 minutes warm up time before starting the image process(waiting time). This is when the laser starts turning on for imaging process . Laser hours and Lasers being off haven't improved the life of Thermal lasers in many cases 2- The Lasers can't get too close to the Plate or it isn't up to service Tech to install it as close as possible to the Plates( There are factory set up and optic bed designed for exact installation location of the Laser with some distance tolerances to Drum as first the beam has to be seen by BCM 3- There are focus and Auto focus Issues which the lenses should be in a right distance from the plate in order for the beam to hit the right spot on the Plates and the problems associated with Thermal lasers specially for external drums4- The GLV calibration for every 21, 41 or.. plates and the corrupted profiles.5- The non-sense story of the plate's quality with SQUARE Spot Technology all are associated with Thermal lasers. However, the Infrared(Thermal) technology is improving and the future is toward That Technology.

I would really like to hear Mark, Kalvin and Steve to provide us with some information about their effective after sales and support provided by their companies for both Technologies. I would also like to know how well and fast their Service Personnel look after the Machines and protect customers' investment.

Regards,

Farshad

 

[marktonk]

Hi Farshad,

With all due respect, the Suprasetter laser is different then what you are stating below. Here is a quote from an article Andrew Tribute wrote on CtP for the last Drupa. This was posted on Whattheythink.com:


" Heidelberg’s Suprasetter, the CtP engine with probably the most advanced thermal imaging technology has substantially increased its market position and it introduced a number of new larger and faster engines at drupa."


I do beleive we have the newest thermal laser technology in the CtP world.


1- The Suprasetter thermal laser does not have a step down/stand by mode that requires a 15 minute warm up time, when you image a plate, it is instananously on, when done imaging, it is off. And the laser is not on when you turn the machine on; it is not degrading just because the CtP is turned on. As I stated, like violet, the laser is only on when imaging plates. So there is a major difference comparing to other thermal lasers techologies. As an example, our demo Surpasetter was on for 9,152 hours but the laser imaging time was only 733 hours with plate imaging being instantaneous.


2- I am a bit confused by your statements on external drum. I go back to the Hell Scanners days. In the 1970's, Dr. Hell released the first laser generated dot with the DC300 A Scanner. We were using a Argon-ion Laser to expose film on an external drum back then . When Heidelberg acquired Linotype-Hell, they also acquired many patents and knowledge of high end imaging. Back then as well as now, the laser is mounted and then fine tuned by our service techs when installing the CtP. Internal drum works well for violet and external for thermal. I do not know what a BCM is.

3-We designed the Suprasetter laser with a very deep depth of focus so that an autofocus mechanism is not required. We also do not have any moving parts such as autofocus in our laser, not one. If dust gets on the exposing drum, this also reduces hotspots or compensates for irregular plates. All of this leads to a very small laser system...actually I carry one in my computer bag, the complete laser measures about 4 1/4" deep by 2 5/8" wide by 2 3/8" tall. I challenge anyone else to carry their complete thermal laser in their computer bag(ok, a regular size computer bag, not a duffel bag


4- The Suprasetter laser is not GLV technology, it is "Individually Addressable Bar" (IAB Laser Array) with 64 individually addressable laser beams without calibration problems. I do not know what you mean by corrupted profiles.

5- No, we do not use the Square Spot story in reference to our laser and we do only offer one high quality thermal laser rated up to 400 line screen.


I can only speak for service in the US, our technicians service our violet Prosetters and our thermal Suprasetters and legacy thermal Topsetters.

Best regards,

Mark Tonkovich

Mark is right, but I have some comments:
1- For Thermal Lasers there are up to 15 minutes warm up time before starting the image process(waiting time). This is when the laser starts turning on for imaging process . Laser hours and Lasers being off haven't improved the life of Thermal lasers in many cases 2- The Lasers can't get too close to the Plate or it isn't up to service Tech to install it as close as possible to the Plates( There are factory set up and optic bed designed for exact installation location of the Laser with some distance tolerances to Drum as first the beam has to be seen by BCM 3- There are focus and Auto focus Issues which the lenses should be in a right distance from the plate in order for the beam to hit the right spot on the Plates and the problems associated with Thermal lasers specially for external drums 4- The GLV calibration for every 21, 41 or.. plates and the corrupted profiles.5- The non-sense story of the plate's quality with SQUARE Spot Technology all are associated with Thermal lasers. However, the Infrared(Thermal) technology is improving and the future is toward That Technology.
I would really like to hear Mark, Kalvin and Steve to provide us with some information about their effective after sales and support provided by their companies for both Technologies. I would also like to know how well and fast their Service Personnel look after the Machines and protect customers' investment.
Regards,
violet
Farshad

 

[Armya Inc]

Hi Farshad,

With all due respect, the Suprasetter laser is different then what you are stating below. Here is a quote from an article Andrew Tribute wrote on CtP for the last Drupa. This was posted on Whattheythink.com:


" Heidelberg’s Suprasetter, the CtP engine with probably the most advanced thermal imaging technology has substantially increased its market position and it introduced a number of new larger and faster engines at drupa."


I do beleive we have the newest thermal laser technology in the CtP world.


1- The Suprasetter thermal laser does not have a step down/stand by mode that requires a 15 minute warm up time, when you image a plate, it is instananously on, when done imaging, it is off. And the laser is not on when you turn the machine on; it is not degrading just because the CtP is turned on. As I stated, like violet, the laser is only on when imaging plates. So there is a major difference comparing to other thermal lasers techologies. As an example, our demo Surpasetter was on for 9,152 hours but the laser imaging time was only 733 hours with plate imaging being instantaneous.


2- I am a bit confused by your statements on external drum. I go back to the Hell Scanners days. In the 1970's, Dr. Hell released the first laser generated dot with the DC300 A Scanner. We were using a Argon-ion Laser to expose film on an external drum back then . When Heidelberg acquired Linotype-Hell, they also acquired many patents and knowledge of high end imaging. Back then as well as now, the laser is mounted and then fine tuned by our service techs when installing the CtP. Internal drum works well for violet and external for thermal. I do not know what a BCM is.

3-We designed the Suprasetter laser with a very deep depth of focus so that an autofocus mechanism is not required. We also do not have any moving parts such as autofocus in our laser, not one. If dust gets on the exposing drum, this also reduces hotspots or compensates for irregular plates. All of this leads to a very small laser system...actually I carry one in my computer bag, the complete laser measures about 4 1/4" deep by 2 5/8" wide by 2 3/8" tall. I challenge anyone else to carry their complete thermal laser in their computer bag(ok, a regular size computer bag, not a duffel bag


4- The Suprasetter laser is not GLV technology, it is "Individually Addressable Bar" (IAB Laser Array) with 64 individually addressable laser beams without calibration problems. I do not know what you mean by corrupted profiles.

5- No, we do not use the Square Spot story in reference to our laser and we do only offer one high quality thermal laser rated up to 400 line screen.


I can only speak for service in the US, our technicians service our violet Prosetters and our thermal Suprasetters and legacy thermal Topsetters.

Best regards,

Mark Tonkovich

Hi Mark,

Thanks so much for brief explanation on your Suprasetter Product.

We are comparing The Thermal and Violet Technologies and not the products. I just wrote my personal opinion and didn't represent anybody.

I have been in your factory at Heidelberg Germany 5 times for service and management trainings Sir. I am well aware of your Suprasetter Technology. If you do not have the Kodak Square Spot Technology now, you used to have it when you had a Joint venture with Creo then, you had strong approach toward marketing of Square Spot Technology . Suddenly, we heard from your Marketing Department that Square Spot Technology had no effect on the quality of imaged Plates. I Think probably you do not remember those days or you do not want to recall Heidelberg's history on prepress systems after Purchasing Linotype Hell. I would like to remind you that after Creo ended Heidelberg/ Creo with your Company, you introduced Topsetter 74 and 102( Screen PlateRite Technology). Back to 1998(Not 1970) you didn't have CTP Technology and you had no Patents.

If you haven't heard of GLV and BCM systems, You should know about your competitors' products(ie: Agfa Avalon LF). Shouldn't you? Many companies have been using this Technology as well as Auto focus system. Probably, this Technology goes back to World War 2.
If you want to have a marketing approach toward this thread to advertise your product that is your choice. The investors are smarter these day and wouldn't invest their money on words like Patents . You sound like Kodak and Screen copied your Patents and you are the only one with Patents. Now can you please provide us with Patent Numbers or the highlights of your Patents which makes your Technology better than GLV and Square Spot Technology. Please do not tell us you can't discuses Company's confidential in Forums. Patents are available publicly. I can also offer you my help to extract Patent Charts and other Intellectual Property information related to your Laser Technology.
By the way, I asked on your Customer Support / Field support in this forum. Let me ask you again: If a low income owner due to recession owns a Suprasetter in Toronto, Canada, how many factory trained Technical Staff do you have in Canada? Where your Service Tech are located? How fast they will make it to your customer's site? Do you have any spare parts available in Canada? Can you please clarify this? Well, your Suprasetter has break down too. isn't it? Or perhaps, your Technology is trouble free according to your Patents.

Best Regards,


Farshad F. Shahrestani | LinkedIn

 

[maxon]

More of an emotional reaction of the above I would like to remind this person Farshad that he ultimately does the same thing as Mark but worse, in emphasizing his expertise trying to promote his business. I find the tone of Farshad's reply quite insulting. For what it's worth I am simply a watcher, in no way connected to Mark Tonkovich or Heidelberg.

 

[nshadab]

More of an emotional reaction of the above I would like to remind this person Farshad that he ultimately does the same thing as Mark but worse, in emphasizing his expertise trying to promote his business. I find the tone of Farshad's reply quite insulting. For what it's worth I am simply a watcher, in no way connected to Mark Tonkovich or Heidelberg.

Very well said...

Why not only VIOLET v/s THERMAL....

i think thats what we are discussing here....lol

 

[marktonk]

Yes, that is where this all started, violet or thermal CtP. My point, as stated before, is that both technologies work and work well. However, you can not just generalize which is better because within each of the technologies, there are differences.

As stated, thermal for the most part uses external drum technology. It was misinterpreted that Heidelberg has a patent on this, as far as I know, they do not. My point is that since Dr. Hell invented EDG (Electronic Dot Generation via a laser) in the 1970's for imaging film on the scanner (which he did have a patent on). This scanner used external drum as the film carrier. Today, external drum is mainly used for thermal. Internal drum for the most part is used with visible light, today being violet and before violet, YAG ( Like the Linotype-Hell Gutenberg CtP launched at Drupa 1995 and was used to image plates on the Heidelberg booth at Print 1997 show in Chicago) and Helium Neon (like the Linotype-Hell Herkules filmsetter). There are exceptions to the this but for the most part this is one way the technologies differ, each technology has a better fit for the type of material handling.

But even within a technology, there are wide differences, you have to be careful in generalized statements because they may be applicable is some instances but in other they are not. Yes, I do know what a Grating Light Valve laser is (I should, I have a DLP TV) and I do know what a 5 mW, 30 mW or 60 mW violet laser is (back to TV, Blue Ray laser is violet). But one thermal laser system may have certain characteristics that are common with others (Thermal energy) but other characteristics that are not.

So I will leave this with quoting myself (humm, never quoted myself before) from earlier in this thread:

" Bottom line is there are allot of variables, not all CtP are created equal, do your research on hardware and plates, keeping in mind what you want to achieve. With the right CtP, plates and proper maintenance, both technologies are capable of providing very high quality and stable output."

Best regards,

Mark

Very well said...

Why not only VIOLET v/s THERMAL....

i think thats what we are discussing here....lol

 

[Armya Inc]

More of an emotional reaction of the above I would like to remind this person Farshad that he ultimately does the same thing as Mark but worse, in emphasizing his expertise trying to promote his business. I find the tone of Farshad's reply quite insulting. For what it's worth I am simply a watcher, in no way connected to Mark Tonkovich or Heidelberg.

Hi Mark/ Colleagues,

Please accept my apology if anybody felt insulted. I thought we have a discussion here which opened by NSHADAB. Maxon, I am not trying to promote my business and I do not need to. I have an International as well as a local business and in direct contact with Freelance Service Techs as well as the owners. No worries, their poor service and support will bring me business from all over the world.
I think before considering buying anything and something like a plate setter, one should consider the service and after sales support in his local area? Let's put it this way, NSHADAB may consider Kodak. Does he know the new versions of Kodak comes with Service Dongle to prevent the third party from accessing the service shell. Does he know in some countries, the local representatives have no proper service and/or spare parts and push the customers to buy or write a contract for consumable and service contracts.

I am not against external drum technology. I just mentioned that Internal Drum Technology(for Violet Systems) has better registration which effect the quality of the Print Job. This make sense since in Thermal Technology we will be dealing with 2 variables Carriage movement and the Spin of the Drum. I do not remember I mentioned anything about mis-registration in External Drum Technology.There is no mis-registration associated with External drum Technology.

Wish you all the best!

 

[Armya Inc]

Hi NSHADAB,

Heidelberg is no where close for having a Patent on External Drum Technology. We are talking about the Patents on their Laser Technology.

Please open the following useful links on Lasers Technology.

http://www.cdnprinter.rogers.dgtlpub.com/data/issuePDF/PRINTER/9000000464-PRINTER.pdf AN OLD AND USEFUL ARTICLE . START ON PAGE 18.

Heidelberg - Laser Technology in the Print Media Industry - Ultimate Precision

Heidelberg - Laser Technology in the Print Media Industry

http://www.bob-weber.com/downloads/pdfs/white_paper/WP_creolaserheadchart.pdf

Hope this will help!

Regards,

Farshad

 

[sb_velagapudi]

Yes, he made some good point here.-
i am going to start with production house (plate processors house) in india. so with my research i opted for thermal...and looking for either kodak or Heidelberg. i still have to workout on both which one is better and cost effective.

Dear Nshadab,
you are planning to start process house,the good choice will be ctcp. pl have a look On Ctcp from CRON and it is reliable and reasonably fair price.this equipment comes with 2,00,000 plates warranty on laser diodes.
if you need further information pl contact me.

v.srinivasa babu.
0091-9848090464

 

[nshadab]

Dear Nshadab,
you are planning to start process house,the good choice will be ctcp. pl have a look On Ctcp from CRON and it is reliable and reasonably fair price.this equipment comes with 2,00,000 plates warranty on laser diodes.
if you need further information pl contact me.

v.srinivasa babu.
0091-9848090464

hi all experts,

do you want to say something about CTCP?
i dont think, it can compete with either thermal or violet...

 

[sb_velagapudi]

hi all experts,

do you want to say something about CTCP?
i dont think, it can compete with either thermal or violet...

Dear All,
you can try to send some file to me, i will expose on normal ps plate ,same file you can try with thermal plates and you can both print in one off-set m/c and see the difference.This Cron ctcp is external drum base and can produce up to 2800 dpi.If you can not do this , i will provide some big offset printers names with telephone nos, who have conducted this comparison exercise and satisfied with the results.

Babu.

 

[Armya Inc]

Dear All,
you can try to send some file to me, i will expose on normal ps plate ,same file you can try with thermal plates and you can both print in one off-set m/c and see the difference.This Cron ctcp is external drum base and can produce up to 2800 dpi.If you can not do this , i will provide some big offset printers names with telephone nos, who have conducted this comparison exercise and satisfied with the results.

Babu.

Hi Babu,

I suggest NShadab sends you a file. You can pick a local brand Thermal and PS plates. I suggest get it from the same company, let say TECHNOVA.
Get 4 CMYK imaged plates with the same dpi from the following CTPS:

1- Heidelberg Suprasetter (Thermal).
2- Kodak 800 series (Thermal).
3- Agfa Avalon N series/ Screen.(Thermal).
4- BasysPrint ( PS ).
5- Lüscher (PS).
6- Cron (Thermal and PS).
Babu has to promise to conduct an honest test. All the laser heads and processors have to be optimized before imaging the plates.

Send all the plates to NSHADAB. He can be the judge which one suites him the best.
I also would like to ask NSHADAB to post his judgment on this forum.

Babu, also can share some of his knowledge from his Technical training on Cron on strong and weak points of plate load/ Unload, Lasers(Thermal and UV), Laboo software and other technical issues related to Cron Thermal Ctp and CtCP. Please be detailed. We have plenty of pages on Cory's forum.

Regards,

 

[gordo]

@ Babu, If you do such a test comparing different CtPs, you might want to order the plates imaged as suggested, then wait a month and request a new magenta plate from each of the vendors. Measure that plate to compare with the original magenta, and use the new plate instead of the old one.

best, gordo

 

[Armya Inc]

@ Babu, If you do such a test comparing different CtPs, you might want to order the plates imaged as suggested, then wait a month and request a new magenta plate from each of the vendors. Measure that plate to compare with the original magenta, and use the new plate instead of the old one.

best, gordo

Perfect! Good to have you here Gordo!