Going Processor-less??? Advice needed

[CMCRhonda]

We are upgrading our press (currently a 1984 4-color 19x25 Heidelberg) to a 1999 6-color w/coater 20x26 Shinohara.

To free up a little floor space, and because the chemicals/processor is a money sink for us, we're also considering going with a new plating solution. We currently use AGFA LithoStar Ultra LAP-V plates.

I would like to keep our platesetter in play - it's Heidelberg ProSetter 74 with violet laser. Most of our runs are under 100m impressions. Many in the 25-50m range. What options should we consider without spending a lot of money? Is ditching the processor even realistic? We have also been told it's possible to switch the laser out - can thermal be a good option for us?

We also use the system for plating on a 2 color Hamada 12x18, so we need to keep that option open.

 

[DCurry]

Take a look at the Agfa Azura plate. It gets gummed, but that's it as far as chemicals go. Nice thing is you can read the plate before hanging it on press for QC purposes. I'm not sure if it is compatible with the violet laser, but I'm sure SteveAgfa will chime in soon enough with all the details.

We've been using this plate since January and we like it a lot. The maintenance on the processor is very simple as well.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Thanks for the invite, Dan!

honda (or is it Rhonda?):

Azura TS is our newer, faster thermal-based chem-free plate.

I doubt that your laser in your violet engine can be changed to a thermal laser.
However, if your existing violet laser is a 30mW or of higher-power, then this
bit of news might of value for you...

Agfa Graphics Launches new :Azura V Chemistry-free Plates at IPEX
Eco friendly and consistent plate production with high printing stability for violet plate users.

AGFA.com - Agfa Graphics Launches new :Azura V Chemistry-free Plates at IPEX

If your existing laser is an early generation 5 mW, I suspect HDM has an upgrade for you.
You will need to substitute a clean-out gumming unit for your existing LP82(?).

Check with your local Agfa rep. for Azura V roll-out plans in your region.

Regards,

 

[CMCRhonda]

It's Rhonda - at CMC

So if I understand the Azura V would still require a processor, just not chemistry. Would we use the processor as a wash station for the gumming? Or purchase a gumming station?

I'm trying to get our local AGFA dealer to contact me - our last rep left and the new one hasn't been around yet - I appreciate the info in the meantime.

Rhonda

 

[SteveAgfa]

Hi Rhonda:

Your local Agfa agent will have access to the replacement gumming station for you,
once the plate is rolled out in your area; its launch is at IPEX in the UK later this month.

Had you been an existing violet photopolymer user, a mod kit could have been used
with your existing processor. However, since you are currently using a violet silver
plate processor, this will need to be switched out to a simple Azura V gumming
station.

Regards,

 

[marktonk]

Hi Rhonda,

We started installing our Saphira Violet Chemfree plate last year.

To image it, your Prosetter will require a 30 mW laser. If you have a 5 mW model, it can be upgraded. If you have the 60 mW model, it is good to go.

This will require a Clean Out Unit instead of your current processor.

Regards,

Mark

 

[pierreborg761]

We are upgrading our press (currently a 1984 4-color 19x25 Heidelberg) to a 1999 6-color w/coater 20x26 Shinohara.

To free up a little floor space, and because the chemicals/processor is a money sink for us, we're also considering going with a new plating solution. We currently use AGFA LithoStar Ultra LAP-V plates.

I would like to keep our platesetter in play - it's Heidelberg ProSetter 74 with violet laser. Most of our runs are under 100m impressions. Many in the 25-50m range. What options should we consider without spending a lot of money? Is ditching the processor even realistic? We have also been told it's possible to switch the laser out - can thermal be a good option for us?

We also use the system for plating on a 2 color Hamada 12x18, so we need to keep that option open.

Dear Mark
We have been using Kodak Thermal Direct plates on SM74 and SM52 multicolor very successfully and you do not need to gum or use any other chemistry whatsoever. from the plate setter go directly to the press and within 3 to 5 sheets you are printing ready to sell sheets. Re the contrast on the plate as soon as it comes out of the platesetter is quite good means you can recognise a plate from another. works brilliantly with no chemistry, much less energy and no extra footprint. Contact your local KODAK agent for further info.

 

[JohnW@Kodak]

Hi Rhonda,
I guess the first start point is to see what the laser on the Prosetter is 5mw or 30/60mw and if 5mw can it be upgraded by Heidelberg as I believe it depends on how old the setter is?
If it can then you could keep the platesetter as you mentioned and then have the option of either the new Azura -V as Steve mentioned ( not sure if this is actually the Agfa N92VCF under a different brand?) or a Violet Photopolymer plate like Kodak Violet Print which will show a saving in chemistry, cleaner working, less waste and processor maintenance compared to your present silver system which has a high maintenance regime.
Going Violet Photopolymer would mean a number of supplier choices which you presently do not have with silver and would be the same situation with Azura-V.
In either case you would need a new processor or gumming unit as Agfa call it both using a chemical - its not chemical /liquid free.
If the prosetter cannot be upgraded then you open up the option of looking at a new platesetter and either Violet or Thermal and then gives the option to look at products like Kodak Thermal Direct and Fuji Pro-T which do not need a processor or developer/gummimg solution etc and are imaged and go straight to press as pierreborg 761 mentions.
Trust this helps and you find the right solution for your company.
Please contact Kodak if you feel you need further assitance when you know what can be done with your present platestter.
Regards
John

 

[SteveAgfa]

JohnW:

Azura V is our violet photopolymer-based chem-free (gum solution only) for commercial applications.

Mark from HDM answered the availability of laser upgrades.

Regards,

 

[CMCRhonda]

Hi Rhonda,

We started installing our Saphira Violet Chemfree plate last year.

To image it, your Prosetter will require a 30 mW laser. If you have a 5 mW model, it can be upgraded. If you have the 60 mW model, it is good to go.

This will require a Clean Out Unit instead of your current processor.

Regards,

Mark

We have been told we only have a 5 mW unit - not sure how to verify. How much (roughly) is the upgrade to 30 mW?

How big is Clean Out Unit - and pricing?

Feel free to email if that works best - [email protected].

Thanks!

 

[CMCRhonda]

Hi Rhonda,
If it can then you could keep the platesetter as you mentioned ... a Violet Photopolymer plate like Kodak Violet Print which will show a saving in chemistry, cleaner working, less waste and processor maintenance compared to your present silver system which has a high maintenance regime.

In either case you would need a new processor or gumming unit as Agfa call it both using a chemical - its not chemical /liquid free.

Trust this helps and you find the right solution for your company.
Please contact Kodak if you feel you need further assitance when you know what can be done with your present platestter.
Regards
John

I'll try to track down our Kodak pre-press so we consider this in our search - thanks for the reply. If you have rough information on pricing for the processor feel free to email [email protected].

Thanks!
Rhonda

 

[marktonk]

HI JohnW

To clarify, a 5 mW Prosetter can be upgraded to a stronger laser so the Prosetter does not have to be replaced to image Chemfree Violet plate.

Regards,

Mark

 

[WS@Fujifilm]

Dear Rhonda,

I like to add some comments.
Thermal CTP is always external drum (off course there are some unique exception such as Luescher or NewSetter). The reason is that such plates need high amount of energy (which cause in many cases ablations / fine dust) and therefore the laser must be very close to the plate surface.
Violet plates are much higher in sensitivity, the laser can be placed "somewhere" in the CTP-engine and via optical constructions the beam images the plate.
So, an update from violet to thermal is not possible (except at Luescher).

Nevertheless, both imaging technologies fulfill customer´s demands.


All current photopolymer plates need pre-heat to finish the image on the plate.
This is also valid for the Fujifilm PRO-V which is released 2008 as well for the soon coming Azura-V. Therefore a special finishing or clean-out unit is needed.
With the Fujifilm PRO-V system it is easy to make more than 2000m2 with 1 bath and the unit is cleaned with simple water rinsing.



All plates currently promoted as CHEMISTRY-FREE need chemistry.... you don´t think so? Please read the MSDS or ask the sales and marketing reps to wash their face with that "chem-free" chemistry. And also in our region it is not allowed to drain any chemistry also not this "chem-free" fluid - this is the truth


Only Kodak´s Thermal Direct and Fujifilm´s are ready to print after exposure, and do not need any special wash to remove the non-exposed area (both are sensitive for 830nm Thermal laser)... and therfore there is no need to pay for fresh and exhausted "chemistry".


The Fujifilm PRO-V has also the qualification for Heidelberg Prosetter.

In case you need more information, please contact our local sales office or contact me, for example at IPEX.

Thanks

Wieland

 

[CMCRhonda]

Dear Rhonda,



The Fujifilm PRO-V has also the qualification for Heidelberg Prosetter.

In case you need more information, please contact our local sales office or contact me, for example at IPEX.

Thanks

Wieland

Thanks for the thoughts. I have contacted our local Fuji Rep - he will be stopping in next week. Previously he has suggested the Brillia CTP Ecomaxx-T and Ecomaxx-V plates - is this basically the Pro-V system, or is there something else I need to consider?

I am most intrigued by the Ecomaxx-V, as it claims processless and chem-free, just not sure I am comparing all the right things...any thoughts on that plate for us? It appears we could use it with a laser change out on the Platesetter.

Thanks again!
Rhonda

 

[CMCRhonda]

HI JohnW

To clarify, a 5 mW Prosetter can be upgraded to a stronger laser so the Prosetter does not have to be replaced to image Chemfree Violet plate.

Regards,

Mark

Thanks Mark - I caught that, and have tracked down my local sales rep to discuss in greater detail.

Is the Saphira Violet probably our best solution if we go with Heidelberg plates? It seems we then need a different processor but maintain our platesetter (with laser upgrade of course).

I appreciate the advice!

Rhonda

 

[CMCRhonda]

Dear Mark
We have been using Kodak Thermal Direct plates on SM74 and SM52 multicolor very successfully and you do not need to gum or use any other chemistry whatsoever.

Which Kodak plate are you using? I found out the press previously ran Kodak Sword P45s - we have always been Violet/metal plates, but are exploring options now.

Thanks,
Rhonda

 

[SteveAgfa]

Rhonda:

The plate Pierre is using is Kodak's version of an on-press clean-out plate.
Fuji employs a similar approach. Of course being thermal, these would require
replacing your platesetter.

Before you do that, have all processless/chem-free prospects send you a
sample press-ready plate, ready for you to run on press... of course with
Kodak and Fuji, these will clean-up on press. With Agfa's Azura TS, the clean-
out happens off-press in a simple gumming station - different approaches.

Regards,

 

[marktonk]

Hi Rhonda,

Saphira Violet Chemfree will work well with your Prosetter if you have a 30 mW laser. You will need to have the Clean Out Unit instead of your existing processor. The benefit is the emulsion is removed prior to the plates being hung on press. Some of the thermal technologies mentioned do develop on press instead of an offline unit. Either way, the emulsion has to be removed and go somewhere. My preference is to have it removed before being on press.

If you look at the thermal solutions mentioned, you will need to replace the Prosetter with a Thermal CtP such as the Suprasetter. If for some reason that makes sense, we also have several thermal plates to go with the Suprasetter.


Regards,

Mark

 

[WS@Fujifilm]

Thanks for the thoughts. I have contacted our local Fuji Rep - he will be stopping in next week. Previously he has suggested the Brillia CTP Ecomaxx-T and Ecomaxx-V plates - is this basically the Pro-V system, or is there something else I need to consider?

I am most intrigued by the Ecomaxx-V, as it claims processless and chem-free, just not sure I am comparing all the right things...any thoughts on that plate for us? It appears we could use it with a laser change out on the Platesetter.

Thanks again!
Rhonda

Hi Rhonda,
In the US we call it Ecomaxx-T which is in Europe Brillia HD PRO-T. That plates belong to a group of so called DoP (Develope on Press) - Thermal working
The second Ecomaxx plate is called Ecomaxx-V - we call that in Europe Brillia HD PRO-V. These plates are ranked as low-chemistry and NOT chem-free, which is a misleading phrase.

As you asked I am happy to explain shortly the working method:
Ecomaxx-V is exposed by a 30mW V-diode, or higher power version.
The plate has a high sensitive photoinitiator which allows highest throughput in any CTP unit already with a 30mW diode, means no must have of 60mW diode.
The plate has a negative working emulsion, the image is exposed.
After exposure the plate is sent to a dedicated "finishing unit" and following steps are done:
Pre-heat -> remove the non image area by finishing fluid -> dry -> ready to print

There is no need to have a pre-wash, not need to rinse and off course no need to gum that plates as it was requested in the past for ALL photopolymer plates.


What is finishing fluid and why can that system be called low-chemistry?
It is a mild alkaline solution which removes the non-exposed coating and supports a very fast start up off the press.

There is no chemical replenishment at all involved - just a top up with WATER to compensate evaporation and the liquid loss due to the plate surface, so just a sensor controls the level of the bath section and sends pure water if level becomes low = no need of an overflow container which normally collect wasted chemistry due to high repl-rate.
No need to control the "activity", the pH, of the bath.

The age of the finishing bath, means the amount of finished plates, does not have an impact to the printing performance.
The maintenance of that finishing unit is very simple. As there is no crystallization, no sludge formation, the unit can be rinsed by simple water. The cleaning takes just "minutes".
There is no need to use aggressive cleaners or solvents to remove any deposits.

As a summary, why it is ranked as Low-Chemistry:
No need for Pre-wash water - no need to pay for fresh and wasted water
No need for Rinse water - no need to pay for fresh and wasted water
No need for finishing gum - no need to pay for fresh and wasted gum
No need for (develper-)replenisher - no need to pay for fresh and wasted replenisher

The only waste liquid which is generated is the amount in your finishing tank, which is depending on the model. And I recommend for any plate system not to drain waste but collect it and get it recycled by dedicated company.




Can the processing system for the current violet photopolymer CTP plates be used?
YES, it can be used for finishing of Ecomaxx-V / PRO-V with simple remodeling.
Up grade kits for many processors already exist.


As I understand your situation, you just need following modifications:
Up-grade the Prosetter from 5mW to 30mW
Exchange the LAP-V processor against a PRO-V finishing unit
Adjust your workflow and your exposure from positive to negative imaging.


I hope that my explanation is helpful to find the right decision for your company.

In case you come to IPEX you will find me at our Fujifilm booth and it would be my pleasure to guide you especially through out PRO-V zone.

Regards

Wieland

 

[SteveAgfa]

Rhonda:

As you have just read, Ecomaxx-V is not a develop on press application -
it is an off-press clean-out system, very similar to Azura V, and if you
remove the pre-heat section, similar too in process to Azura TS -
our thermal chem-free plate.

Regards,